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Hey guys - Burak here. Ouch, this was supposed to be a ‘soft’ launch. I’m here to answer any questions as usual. I’ll pick the best and try to add it to the FA

Hey guys - Burak here. Ouch, this was supposed to be a ‘soft’ launch. I’m here to answer any questions as usual. I’ll pick the best and try to add it to the FAQ on the site.

TekMol 8y ago
Looks good. But a native application? I would only install a native application if it comes from a source that has a proven trackrecord of being trustworthy. Can you track how many people installed it, now that it is on HN? You say it puts everyone on "one single universe with the same content". So it should be easy to put up an instance that provides a web interface to the content, right? I would think that posting via the browser should also be possible without relying on a single server / authority. A user could hold a private key which they use to sign their posts. And then deliver the post via any server that offers an interface for it. Similar to how a Bitcoin transaction can be delivered via any server that offers such a service. So it would still be decentralized but can be used via the browser.
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  Yes I can, because this is a developer preview version, and it has anonymous metrics in. Stable versions are going to ask in the onboarding if you want to join the anonymous metrics program (like Firefox). Yes it would be easy - that would just be an another node that showed it’s read-only UI on the web. (You still need to mint proofs of work, so you would need an actual computer for posting.)
  - guachesuedehack 8y ago
    is it open sourced ?
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    What’s the proof of work? Is it something common to protect p2p network from spam?
- balladeer 8y ago
  It's not a native application. It's an Electron app. By the way it doesn't ask for an elevated permission.
se7entime 8y ago
will you provide .AppImage or Flatpak or Snap? or all of them?
rch 8y ago
Seems to overlap with what SSB is trying to accomplish. Do you see any opportunities for integrating with that or other protocols, maybe for tracking unique identities over time? (backed on patreon btw)
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  Thank you! I’m a little hair on fire at the moment but if you want to claim your unique username, please reach out to me (I’m not sure if I have a way of reaching out to you through Patreon) and I’ll issue it.
  - smokeyj 8y ago
    I think parent was asking for your take on the secure scuttlebot protocol (SSB) and the overlap of goals. I would also be interested, thanks!
    - rolleiflex 8y ago
      I think it's covered here: https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/#secure-scuttlebutt https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/#secure-... In summary, SSB is, from what I can see, designed for non-public sharing of Twitter-like content between friends, and your data only traverses to people who follow you. In contrast, Aether is explicitly designed to be a public space where you talk to people you don't know. It communicates everyone's information to everybody. To make that possible, Aether only accepts and transmits text (you can still link to stuff), while SSB can transmit other formats directly in the protocol itself. (I might be horribly wrong: I'm not a SSB expert. Please correct me if so.)
ValentineC 8y ago
Thanks for creating this! How does the unique username perk for patrons work? Does it mean that people can still create "normal"-coloured usernames, but there can only be one orange "verified" one?
- tomsmeding 8y ago
  Yep, that's how it works.
dcow 8y ago
I would like to give Aether2 a test run. The only version I can find is the old 1.2.3 release on GitHub. Others here seem to have version 2. Where can I get it?
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  https://getaether.net https://getaether.net has the new one. If you get a green site, delete your browser cache and try again.
  - dcow 8y ago
    I get the "you've caught it before launch" alert when I click download.
    - rolleiflex 8y ago
      There's something with Cloudflare and Netlify interacting in a weird way. I just removed CF caching from the frontend, so you should be able to use it normally now.
billconan 8y ago
I thought about doing something like this with orbitdb. maybe large content, like video, could be using ipfs.
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  That would be very cool! Let me know if you ever implement it, Aether only delivers text at this moment.
tomsmeding 8y ago
Do threads refresh automatically in the Aether client, or is there some magic way in which one can do so? c.f. aether://board/86e782e80681ac580b4d6d102b12e787c066e59f194fee57bb0bf83cc1e42fc6/thread/4932c494227ccd4f632c2ace1012f58fd79d0d531b2dcd148463491598c841d8
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  Check the status page reachable from bottom left - it will tell you the last frontend compile, how long it took. That’s the ‘refresh’ rate. Essentially, every minute or so.
nixarian 8y ago
You state that one of the purposes of this platform is to allow you the freedom to be wrong, but if people can save something before 6 months, how would you prevent someone from saving an embarrassing comment for future use against you? Or are you the only one capable of saving your own comments?
- a_t48 8y ago
  There’s always the ‘analog hole’. Someone can take a screenshot. Probably won’t unless you are egregious about something. What this should prevent is someone going back in time and digging through your stuff for something embarrassing, if they weren’t associated with you before.
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  They can definitely save yours - and if you’re someone whose comments should be saved, be pseudonymous. What they can’t do is they can’t go back 14 years of history like they can on Twitter, after the fact, and find something out of context there. Pseudonymity and ephemerality are the two sides of the same coin. One doesn’t protect without the other.
  - inequity 8y ago
    Have you considered the inequities that such a retention policy introduces into HOW history can be used? The entrepreneurial (and governments) will archive everything to serve the wealthy (including governments), who will be able to use history to their ends. Those without resources will live in an eternal present, except where history is used against them. To sell this kind of retention policy as a user-protecting feature is (in my view) at best naive, and at worst, disingenuous. This model increases the economic cost of mining history, but in doing so, entrenches existing wealth and power structures. Thanks to the ever-decreasing cost-per-bit of storage, the internet is forever. The only hope for redemption lies in this permanence affecting everyone equally; otherwise we're doomed to (continue to) live in a world where only the wealthy and politically connected have read and write access to history.
    - 8y ago
FlyingSnake 8y ago
Looks great, kudos on the `soft' launch. * The FAQs say that the app is a p2p based app. What is the p2p protocol being used here? * How does it compare to libp2p, SSB, and others? * What's the security model, and how would the system mitigate Sybil attacks etc? Are there any plans to have mobile apps (preferable native)? I think if people could use it on their mobile phones, it would be a game changer.
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  Thanks! > The FAQs say that the app is a p2p based app. What is the p2p protocol being used here? * How does it compare to libp2p, SSB, and others? * What's the security model, and how would the system mitigate Sybil attacks etc? It's built from scratch. It runs c0 subprotocol of Mim. You can see some basic comparisons here: https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/ https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/ Other questions - all good questions, but it depends on what your definition of security model is. Sybil attacks are prevented by cryptographic signatures and proof of work. Unique names are available to provide a good human-friendly polish over cryptographic signatures, as well. > Are there any plans to have mobile apps (preferable native)? I think if people could use it on their mobile phones, it would be a game changer. Yes, I would _love_ to have mobile apps. The system supports it, but I don't have the money to spend the time building them, or to pay someone to build them. In essence, it depends on how popular the project gets - if enough people support it financially, it would certainly be a first priority.
  - comex 8y ago
    > It runs c0 subprotocol of Mim. Can you elaborate? Googling these terms doesn't produce much other than a few papers using "MiM" to mean man-in-the-middle, as well as your comment itself!
    - rolleiflex 8y ago
      I actually posted the protocol spec somewhere a few months ago, but it might have gotten taken down when I flipped the beta site into the production site. Mim (comes from 'mime' from 'to replicate') is a HTTP based stateless protocol where the nodes communicate with each other via bog-standard HTTP GET and POST requests. The nodes can create caches for oft-requested data. c0 is a subprotocol of Mim that defines six graph objects, boards, threads, posts, userkeys, votes and truststates. the first four are obvious, the vote is a userkey > b|t|p relation, a trustste is a userkey > userkey relation. It creates a directed graph that is mostly acyclic. It allows for efficient flood-network propagation of this graph based on time intervals, and it comes with certain patch semantics, so given a delta communicated from one node to another, there is always a way to apply that delta into the local node's graph in a way that does not create merge conflicts.
brokenmachine 8y ago
Is the proof-of-work likely to be too much for a mobile to be able to do? If a mobile client were to be made, that is. Also, does the proof-of-work scale, eg how the bitcoin network gets harder and harder as the hashing power increases.
brokenmachine 8y ago
Can you post to this from Tor? edit: oops, just found this https://meta.getaether.net/t/how-to-use-aether-behind-tor/53 https://meta.getaether.net/t/how-to-use-aether-behind-tor/53

Hey guys - Burak here. Ouch, this was supposed to be a ‘soft’ launch. I’m here to answer any questions as usual. I’ll pick the best and try to add it to the FAQ on the site.

TekMol 8y ago

Looks good. But a native application? I would only install a native application if it comes from a source that has a proven trackrecord of being trustworthy. Can you track how many people installed it, now that it is on HN? You say it puts everyone on "one single universe with the same content". So it should be easy to put up an instance that provides a web interface to the content, right? I would think that posting via the browser should also be possible without relying on a single server / authority. A user could hold a private key which they use to sign their posts. And then deliver the post via any server that offers an interface for it. Similar to how a Bitcoin transaction can be delivered via any server that offers such a service. So it would still be decentralized but can be used via the browser.

rolleiflex 8y ago
Yes I can, because this is a developer preview version, and it has anonymous metrics in. Stable versions are going to ask in the onboarding if you want to join the anonymous metrics program (like Firefox). Yes it would be easy - that would just be an another node that showed it’s read-only UI on the web. (You still need to mint proofs of work, so you would need an actual computer for posting.)
- guachesuedehack 8y ago
  is it open sourced ?
- the_clarence 8y ago
  What’s the proof of work? Is it something common to protect p2p network from spam?
balladeer 8y ago
It's not a native application. It's an Electron app. By the way it doesn't ask for an elevated permission.

se7entime 8y ago

will you provide .AppImage or Flatpak or Snap? or all of them?

rch 8y ago

Seems to overlap with what SSB is trying to accomplish. Do you see any opportunities for integrating with that or other protocols, maybe for tracking unique identities over time? (backed on patreon btw)

rolleiflex 8y ago
Thank you! I’m a little hair on fire at the moment but if you want to claim your unique username, please reach out to me (I’m not sure if I have a way of reaching out to you through Patreon) and I’ll issue it.
- smokeyj 8y ago
  I think parent was asking for your take on the secure scuttlebot protocol (SSB) and the overlap of goals. I would also be interested, thanks!
  - rolleiflex 8y ago
    I think it's covered here: https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/#secure-scuttlebutt https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/#secure-... In summary, SSB is, from what I can see, designed for non-public sharing of Twitter-like content between friends, and your data only traverses to people who follow you. In contrast, Aether is explicitly designed to be a public space where you talk to people you don't know. It communicates everyone's information to everybody. To make that possible, Aether only accepts and transmits text (you can still link to stuff), while SSB can transmit other formats directly in the protocol itself. (I might be horribly wrong: I'm not a SSB expert. Please correct me if so.)

ValentineC 8y ago

Thanks for creating this! How does the unique username perk for patrons work? Does it mean that people can still create "normal"-coloured usernames, but there can only be one orange "verified" one?

tomsmeding 8y ago
Yep, that's how it works.

dcow 8y ago

I would like to give Aether2 a test run. The only version I can find is the old 1.2.3 release on GitHub. Others here seem to have version 2. Where can I get it?

rolleiflex 8y ago
https://getaether.net https://getaether.net has the new one. If you get a green site, delete your browser cache and try again.
- dcow 8y ago
  I get the "you've caught it before launch" alert when I click download.
  - rolleiflex 8y ago
    There's something with Cloudflare and Netlify interacting in a weird way. I just removed CF caching from the frontend, so you should be able to use it normally now.

billconan 8y ago

I thought about doing something like this with orbitdb. maybe large content, like video, could be using ipfs.

rolleiflex 8y ago
That would be very cool! Let me know if you ever implement it, Aether only delivers text at this moment.

tomsmeding 8y ago

Do threads refresh automatically in the Aether client, or is there some magic way in which one can do so? c.f. aether://board/86e782e80681ac580b4d6d102b12e787c066e59f194fee57bb0bf83cc1e42fc6/thread/4932c494227ccd4f632c2ace1012f58fd79d0d531b2dcd148463491598c841d8

rolleiflex 8y ago
Check the status page reachable from bottom left - it will tell you the last frontend compile, how long it took. That’s the ‘refresh’ rate. Essentially, every minute or so.

nixarian 8y ago

You state that one of the purposes of this platform is to allow you the freedom to be wrong, but if people can save something before 6 months, how would you prevent someone from saving an embarrassing comment for future use against you? Or are you the only one capable of saving your own comments?

a_t48 8y ago
There’s always the ‘analog hole’. Someone can take a screenshot. Probably won’t unless you are egregious about something. What this should prevent is someone going back in time and digging through your stuff for something embarrassing, if they weren’t associated with you before.
rolleiflex 8y ago
They can definitely save yours - and if you’re someone whose comments should be saved, be pseudonymous. What they can’t do is they can’t go back 14 years of history like they can on Twitter, after the fact, and find something out of context there. Pseudonymity and ephemerality are the two sides of the same coin. One doesn’t protect without the other.
- inequity 8y ago
  Have you considered the inequities that such a retention policy introduces into HOW history can be used? The entrepreneurial (and governments) will archive everything to serve the wealthy (including governments), who will be able to use history to their ends. Those without resources will live in an eternal present, except where history is used against them. To sell this kind of retention policy as a user-protecting feature is (in my view) at best naive, and at worst, disingenuous. This model increases the economic cost of mining history, but in doing so, entrenches existing wealth and power structures. Thanks to the ever-decreasing cost-per-bit of storage, the internet is forever. The only hope for redemption lies in this permanence affecting everyone equally; otherwise we're doomed to (continue to) live in a world where only the wealthy and politically connected have read and write access to history.
  - 8y ago

FlyingSnake 8y ago

Looks great, kudos on the `soft' launch. * The FAQs say that the app is a p2p based app. What is the p2p protocol being used here? * How does it compare to libp2p, SSB, and others? * What's the security model, and how would the system mitigate Sybil attacks etc? Are there any plans to have mobile apps (preferable native)? I think if people could use it on their mobile phones, it would be a game changer.

rolleiflex 8y ago
Thanks! > The FAQs say that the app is a p2p based app. What is the p2p protocol being used here? * How does it compare to libp2p, SSB, and others? * What's the security model, and how would the system mitigate Sybil attacks etc? It's built from scratch. It runs c0 subprotocol of Mim. You can see some basic comparisons here: https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/ https://getaether.net/docs/how_is_it_different_from/ Other questions - all good questions, but it depends on what your definition of security model is. Sybil attacks are prevented by cryptographic signatures and proof of work. Unique names are available to provide a good human-friendly polish over cryptographic signatures, as well. > Are there any plans to have mobile apps (preferable native)? I think if people could use it on their mobile phones, it would be a game changer. Yes, I would _love_ to have mobile apps. The system supports it, but I don't have the money to spend the time building them, or to pay someone to build them. In essence, it depends on how popular the project gets - if enough people support it financially, it would certainly be a first priority.
- comex 8y ago
  > It runs c0 subprotocol of Mim. Can you elaborate? Googling these terms doesn't produce much other than a few papers using "MiM" to mean man-in-the-middle, as well as your comment itself!
  - rolleiflex 8y ago
    I actually posted the protocol spec somewhere a few months ago, but it might have gotten taken down when I flipped the beta site into the production site. Mim (comes from 'mime' from 'to replicate') is a HTTP based stateless protocol where the nodes communicate with each other via bog-standard HTTP GET and POST requests. The nodes can create caches for oft-requested data. c0 is a subprotocol of Mim that defines six graph objects, boards, threads, posts, userkeys, votes and truststates. the first four are obvious, the vote is a userkey > b|t|p relation, a trustste is a userkey > userkey relation. It creates a directed graph that is mostly acyclic. It allows for efficient flood-network propagation of this graph based on time intervals, and it comes with certain patch semantics, so given a delta communicated from one node to another, there is always a way to apply that delta into the local node's graph in a way that does not create merge conflicts.

brokenmachine 8y ago

Is the proof-of-work likely to be too much for a mobile to be able to do? If a mobile client were to be made, that is. Also, does the proof-of-work scale, eg how the bitcoin network gets harder and harder as the hashing power increases.

brokenmachine 8y ago

Can you post to this from Tor? edit: oops, just found this https://meta.getaether.net/t/how-to-use-aether-behind-tor/53 https://meta.getaether.net/t/how-to-use-aether-behind-tor/53