4 ms·

What even is a world-class software engineer? We know people like Martin Fowler, not just because of their technical excellence, but because of their communica

What even is a world-class software engineer? We know people like Martin Fowler, not just because of their technical excellence, but because of their communication / public speaking / books they wrote. We know about about Larry Page and Sergey Brin because they created a hugely successful product and company. Would we call somebody a world-class software engineer if they had the technical excellence, but nobody heard of them because they work in internal projects in some big corp, and they happen to not talk much about their work? Some factors include: Technical excellence, knowing what to build and what not, knowing when there is a simpler solution than writing software, communication skills (and social skills in general), leadership, grit. I have no idea if this answer has helped you. A more specific question might elicit more helpful answers.

adamnemecek 8y ago
These are terrible examples. What has Martin Fowler actually built? As for google, I don’t think they are good software engineers, they had someone take the idea from prototype to production.
- vonseel 8y ago
  I would think the vast majority of “world class” professional software engineers go unnoticed unless they transition into a more academic, entrepreneurial, or otherwise public role later in their careers. We know the names of people like mentioned above because of what they created or how prolific and widespread their teaching work is. Professional engineering demands no publicity outside the organization and while there may exist legendary engineers within Google, Apple, etc - people who insiders know and may follow their careers - if you aren’t “in” and connected in a big way you aren’t going to be familiar with them. I certainly am not.
  - cc81 8y ago
    There are a some, the most obvious example being Linus Torvalds. At google you have Jeff Dean who has, rightfully, become famous as a world class software engineer.
    - avmich 8y ago
      At Google you also have Ken Thompson, who I'd argue is a world class software engineer :) . Actually, scientist too...
  - Joeri 8y ago
    They may also not be interested in publicity. Dave Cutler is reported to have had it written into his contract at microsoft that he didn’t have to deal with the press, and he pretty much never did.
- tmaly 8y ago
  I would say Martin Fowler has built excellent materials such as Clean Code that have helped software engineers across the world improve their skills. This material has substantial leverage over say a single piece of software to better the industry.
beatgammit 8y ago
My boss keeps using that term and it's completely meaningless. I think it's a feel-good term that execs like to get more productivity out of their team (who wouldn't want to be "world class"?). A quality engineer is one who: - can solve problems on their own to deliver on commitments - teaches themselves new technologies to stay current - knows when to ask for help vs hunkering down - provides constructive, experience-based insight when applicable A "world class" engineer sounds like "rockstar", which is maybe the first two of those bullet points, but it completely ignores the communication aspect. Maybe "world class" means something more to someone else, but I think it's just jargon.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  To me, "world-class software engineer" is literal - an engineer who can thrive anywhere in the world, ideally in any situation one needs software development for. That means understanding industrial processes as much as dot-com tech lingo. The difference between designing for regulatory requirements and putting up a cookie consent waiver. Being able to effectively mentor junior engineers and continually refresh one's knowledge. The ability to navigate office politics and push back on unhealthy work-life balance. And of course, computer science academics. "World class engineer" may just be jargon, but it's also aspirational. I know people who taught themselves JavaScript and Python in a year and are working at tech giants, and people who've been working in tech for 30 years and struggle to lead a small team. Maybe if we had a roadmap for what makes a world-class engineer, it might become easier to rise to that level.
blueboo 8y ago
It's true -- the best often languish in unrecognized obscurity -- FAANGs deliberately keep their most productive/crucial engineers secret -- carefully ensuring they're never named in blog posts or that marquee products don't have their engineering processes presented in an overly-transparent way. Some might transition into experts in the Art of Engineering or computer science -- as vonseei suggests below -- but I suggest most are squandered keeping tsunamis of corporate-engineered mediocrity under control.
ryandrake 8y ago
Does "world-class" refer to the engineer's fame or competence? Because these don't necessarily overlap. Some medium-talent engineers happen to be well-known because they lucked out and hit the startup lottery, and now command $1M/year salaries forever because of their names. I've worked with one or two of them at a FAANG-level company and they're insufferable. The only reason I'd aspire to be one of these phonies is that they basically get to be paid for their past performance rather than what they're doing today. As you say there are also extremely talented, hard-working, productive engineers working away in obscurity because they'd rather work for slow-growth, stable companies, or they're under agreements that don't let them talk to the outside world. Maybe these engineers are the "world-class" ones. My question is: Why this desire to be "world-class"? You can make a great living in the trades, and nobody ever asks if you''re a world-class plumber or electrician. Few people ever say "I need to be a world-class accountant, doctor, or lawyer." So, why does everyone aspire to be a top-1% engineer? Is engineering such a competitive field? Is it because of these ridiculous companies that say such idiotic things in their recruiting literature as "We only hire the top 1%!!" The vast majority of engineering employers do not require world-class engineers, so why do so many people aspire to be one?
sam0x17 8y ago
I think it means someone who would be considered a 10x developer in any software engineering market in the world.

adamnemecek 8y ago

These are terrible examples. What has Martin Fowler actually built? As for google, I don’t think they are good software engineers, they had someone take the idea from prototype to production.

vonseel 8y ago
I would think the vast majority of “world class” professional software engineers go unnoticed unless they transition into a more academic, entrepreneurial, or otherwise public role later in their careers. We know the names of people like mentioned above because of what they created or how prolific and widespread their teaching work is. Professional engineering demands no publicity outside the organization and while there may exist legendary engineers within Google, Apple, etc - people who insiders know and may follow their careers - if you aren’t “in” and connected in a big way you aren’t going to be familiar with them. I certainly am not.
- cc81 8y ago
  There are a some, the most obvious example being Linus Torvalds. At google you have Jeff Dean who has, rightfully, become famous as a world class software engineer.
  - avmich 8y ago
    At Google you also have Ken Thompson, who I'd argue is a world class software engineer :) . Actually, scientist too...
- Joeri 8y ago
  They may also not be interested in publicity. Dave Cutler is reported to have had it written into his contract at microsoft that he didn’t have to deal with the press, and he pretty much never did.
tmaly 8y ago
I would say Martin Fowler has built excellent materials such as Clean Code that have helped software engineers across the world improve their skills. This material has substantial leverage over say a single piece of software to better the industry.

beatgammit 8y ago

My boss keeps using that term and it's completely meaningless. I think it's a feel-good term that execs like to get more productivity out of their team (who wouldn't want to be "world class"?). A quality engineer is one who: - can solve problems on their own to deliver on commitments - teaches themselves new technologies to stay current - knows when to ask for help vs hunkering down - provides constructive, experience-based insight when applicable A "world class" engineer sounds like "rockstar", which is maybe the first two of those bullet points, but it completely ignores the communication aspect. Maybe "world class" means something more to someone else, but I think it's just jargon.

peterwwillis 8y ago
To me, "world-class software engineer" is literal - an engineer who can thrive anywhere in the world, ideally in any situation one needs software development for. That means understanding industrial processes as much as dot-com tech lingo. The difference between designing for regulatory requirements and putting up a cookie consent waiver. Being able to effectively mentor junior engineers and continually refresh one's knowledge. The ability to navigate office politics and push back on unhealthy work-life balance. And of course, computer science academics. "World class engineer" may just be jargon, but it's also aspirational. I know people who taught themselves JavaScript and Python in a year and are working at tech giants, and people who've been working in tech for 30 years and struggle to lead a small team. Maybe if we had a roadmap for what makes a world-class engineer, it might become easier to rise to that level.

blueboo 8y ago

It's true -- the best often languish in unrecognized obscurity -- FAANGs deliberately keep their most productive/crucial engineers secret -- carefully ensuring they're never named in blog posts or that marquee products don't have their engineering processes presented in an overly-transparent way. Some might transition into experts in the Art of Engineering or computer science -- as vonseei suggests below -- but I suggest most are squandered keeping tsunamis of corporate-engineered mediocrity under control.

ryandrake 8y ago

Does "world-class" refer to the engineer's fame or competence? Because these don't necessarily overlap. Some medium-talent engineers happen to be well-known because they lucked out and hit the startup lottery, and now command $1M/year salaries forever because of their names. I've worked with one or two of them at a FAANG-level company and they're insufferable. The only reason I'd aspire to be one of these phonies is that they basically get to be paid for their past performance rather than what they're doing today. As you say there are also extremely talented, hard-working, productive engineers working away in obscurity because they'd rather work for slow-growth, stable companies, or they're under agreements that don't let them talk to the outside world. Maybe these engineers are the "world-class" ones. My question is: Why this desire to be "world-class"? You can make a great living in the trades, and nobody ever asks if you''re a world-class plumber or electrician. Few people ever say "I need to be a world-class accountant, doctor, or lawyer." So, why does everyone aspire to be a top-1% engineer? Is engineering such a competitive field? Is it because of these ridiculous companies that say such idiotic things in their recruiting literature as "We only hire the top 1%!!" The vast majority of engineering employers do not require world-class engineers, so why do so many people aspire to be one?

sam0x17 8y ago

I think it means someone who would be considered a 10x developer in any software engineering market in the world.