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> We overproduce food now... The alternatives to Roundup tend to be worse than Roundup. That's why people use Roundup. That's not to say Roundup per se is abso

> We overproduce food now... The alternatives to Roundup tend to be worse than Roundup. That's why people use Roundup. That's not to say Roundup per se is absolutely necessary, but farming without pesticides doesn't work at the scale necessary to feed the human population. There's no choice between "overproduction" and "appropriate production" by getting rid of pesticides. Despite all the overproduction, we still have spikes in food prices caused by bad harvests. Limiting production even more would be risky. > ... and organic farming techniques, of widely adopted, wouldn't make it impossible to continue to produce enough. First of all, "organic farming" is marketing BS. It doesn't have any properly defined meaning, it also uses pesticides (just not those deemed "not organic") which aren't harmless either, it is vastly more expensive even at scale (which by now it has, due to high demand in rich countries). It's wishful thinking that it could replace modern farming.

ramblenode 8y ago
> First of all, "organic farming" is marketing BS. At least in the US, there is a "certified organic" label regulated by the USDA. https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national-organic-program https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national...
- mrmanner 8y ago
  EU has its own label as well[1], and most (or all?) EU states protect the word "organic" on the food market so it can only be used for foods certified by a few approved organizations. 1: https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/splash_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/splash_en
- strainer 8y ago
  Its not just a label, its a regulated labeling term. Practically all food labelled as organic in US, EU and other regions has to be certified organic. This "marketing BS" idea is pure meme. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-s...
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    It’s marketing BS in the sense that organic food still uses pesticides. I guarantee you that fact would be shocking to most consumers of organic foods.
    - strainer 8y ago
      That "in a sense" is just making light of what is literally a falsehood and which introduced a string of them in the source comment: "It doesn't have any properly defined meaning ...." Organics pesticide use is much more selective and heavily controlled than standard regulations[1]. Your notion that most consumers of organic food have unrealistic expectations ( with no survey to support that ) is really just a statement of your own expectations. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/higher-antioxidant-and-lower-cadmium-concentrations-and-lower-incidence-of-pesticide-residues-in-organically-grown-crops-a-systematic-literature-review-and-metaanalyses/33F09637EAE6C4ED119E0C4BFFE2D5B1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...
      - zeroname 8y ago
        If the meaning is so "properly defined", then why do we have a self-described organic farmer in this thread, who says pesticides are off the table for him? Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? By the way, you can slap a "gluten free" label on table water and it'll be marketing BS, but at least "gluten free" has a properly defined meaning.
        strainer 8y ago
        The organic farming regulations are professionally developed for decades, globally. US labeling options and regulations are officially defined [1,2] Very small scale producers like the farmer in this thread have some leeway - this is a feature of your national regulatory framework suiting small local markets, it is relevant to a tiny fraction of traded organic produce. > Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? You know in this age of IT you can find answers to your questions. [3] > Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. Why are there differences across countries in safety regulations? How well is the term "safety" internationally defined ? Where did you get the idea that dictionary definition of "organic farming" should be able to completely explain the practice. What other well defined terms do that ?? Renewables, Genetic Engineering, Nuclear, Carbon reduction? I think this involves unwillingness to observe context and make sense of terms, for the sake of the sort of argument which is fun for supporting sport teams. [1] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1... [3] https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us
jjoonathan 8y ago
It brings to mind sorting food at the shelter. The bins of produce that don't have an organic label usually come covered in some sort of semi-waxy preservative goop -- but it washes right off and the produce is almost always good. The bins with an organic label never have the goop but the produce itself has almost always gone bad. Entire bins of mush. The waste is staggering. That goop had better be poisoning dolphins or something, because the null hypothesis -- that it really isn't so bad and organic labels reject it on account of the FUD opportunity -- is pretty damning.
jelliclesfarm 8y ago
That’s not true. Organic farming is different from organic certification. I am not certified but I use organic methods. Only those who trust me and know me and have seen my farm knows about my methods but I am a small farm and that works for me. Organic methods of farming : 1. no pesticide or weedicide 2. Crop rotation 3. Cover cropping 4. Hedgerows 5. Watershed management 6. Organic and generally non GMO seeds. Sometimes hybrid Altho open pollinated is more gimmicky. Hybrid is natural. Organic farming that involves tillage also releases carbon. No till organic involves hand labour. It all hinges on manual labour. That’s why I have been begging for automation for small acreage farms that produce food. Not grains or commodity crops or food for industry/exporting like lettuce or strawberries...but for small organic farms under 100 acres that can now afford to go no/low tillage with robotic platforms in the field and automation.
- zeroname 8y ago
  > That’s not true. Honestly, I think everything you said supports my point. Now, maybe you don't tell anyone that you're more organic than the organic pope, but that makes you an extreme exception, not the rule.

ramblenode 8y ago

> First of all, "organic farming" is marketing BS. At least in the US, there is a "certified organic" label regulated by the USDA. https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national-organic-program https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national...

mrmanner 8y ago
EU has its own label as well[1], and most (or all?) EU states protect the word "organic" on the food market so it can only be used for foods certified by a few approved organizations. 1: https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/splash_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/splash_en
strainer 8y ago
Its not just a label, its a regulated labeling term. Practically all food labelled as organic in US, EU and other regions has to be certified organic. This "marketing BS" idea is pure meme. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-standards https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-s...
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  It’s marketing BS in the sense that organic food still uses pesticides. I guarantee you that fact would be shocking to most consumers of organic foods.
  - strainer 8y ago
    That "in a sense" is just making light of what is literally a falsehood and which introduced a string of them in the source comment: "It doesn't have any properly defined meaning ...." Organics pesticide use is much more selective and heavily controlled than standard regulations[1]. Your notion that most consumers of organic food have unrealistic expectations ( with no survey to support that ) is really just a statement of your own expectations. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/higher-antioxidant-and-lower-cadmium-concentrations-and-lower-incidence-of-pesticide-residues-in-organically-grown-crops-a-systematic-literature-review-and-metaanalyses/33F09637EAE6C4ED119E0C4BFFE2D5B1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...
    - zeroname 8y ago
      If the meaning is so "properly defined", then why do we have a self-described organic farmer in this thread, who says pesticides are off the table for him? Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? By the way, you can slap a "gluten free" label on table water and it'll be marketing BS, but at least "gluten free" has a properly defined meaning.
      - strainer 8y ago
        The organic farming regulations are professionally developed for decades, globally. US labeling options and regulations are officially defined [1,2] Very small scale producers like the farmer in this thread have some leeway - this is a feature of your national regulatory framework suiting small local markets, it is relevant to a tiny fraction of traded organic produce. > Who decides which pesticides are okay, what is the criterion that everyone can agree on? You know in this age of IT you can find answers to your questions. [3] > Why are there differences across countries, if there is a proper definition of it? Because it is a developed practical system, its not defined by dictionary definition - it is very complicated. Why are there differences across countries in safety regulations? How well is the term "safety" internationally defined ? Where did you get the idea that dictionary definition of "organic farming" should be able to completely explain the practice. What other well defined terms do that ?? Renewables, Genetic Engineering, Nuclear, Carbon reduction? I think this involves unwillingness to observe context and make sense of terms, for the sake of the sort of argument which is fun for supporting sport teams. [1] https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic/labeling [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1025eb0e6b67cadf9d3b40&rgn=div6&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=9874504b6f1... [3] https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us https://www.ifoam.bio/en/about-us

jjoonathan 8y ago

It brings to mind sorting food at the shelter. The bins of produce that don't have an organic label usually come covered in some sort of semi-waxy preservative goop -- but it washes right off and the produce is almost always good. The bins with an organic label never have the goop but the produce itself has almost always gone bad. Entire bins of mush. The waste is staggering. That goop had better be poisoning dolphins or something, because the null hypothesis -- that it really isn't so bad and organic labels reject it on account of the FUD opportunity -- is pretty damning.

jelliclesfarm 8y ago

That’s not true. Organic farming is different from organic certification. I am not certified but I use organic methods. Only those who trust me and know me and have seen my farm knows about my methods but I am a small farm and that works for me. Organic methods of farming : 1. no pesticide or weedicide 2. Crop rotation 3. Cover cropping 4. Hedgerows 5. Watershed management 6. Organic and generally non GMO seeds. Sometimes hybrid Altho open pollinated is more gimmicky. Hybrid is natural. Organic farming that involves tillage also releases carbon. No till organic involves hand labour. It all hinges on manual labour. That’s why I have been begging for automation for small acreage farms that produce food. Not grains or commodity crops or food for industry/exporting like lettuce or strawberries...but for small organic farms under 100 acres that can now afford to go no/low tillage with robotic platforms in the field and automation.

zeroname 8y ago
> That’s not true. Honestly, I think everything you said supports my point. Now, maybe you don't tell anyone that you're more organic than the organic pope, but that makes you an extreme exception, not the rule.