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The forums for Free Speech in the 60's also came with a lot of what was thought of as perverted toxic nonsense. Some of that is still thought of as unacceptable

The forums for Free Speech in the 60's also came with a lot of what was thought of as perverted toxic nonsense. Some of that is still thought of as unacceptable today.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
There are some very real problems where oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" in order to sort their own problems. New ideas are also inevitable heretical. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a challenge. Trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater is a challenge.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" There's a difference between letting people express themselves and ratifying hate to fuel more outrage. Doing that is throwing the justice baby out with the bathwater -- also because it's more viral and you make more money and get more political power that way.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I'm aware. I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out. It can be hard to figure what is legitimate and righteous anger that is nonetheless Verboten to express and what is merely outrage fuel. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. It gets vastly more complicated when you are trying to do that in some kind of group setting. It easily goes bad places.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out As a person of color, who has also been the victim of other sorts of impropriety, let me say this: If you want the best and most productive life, you want to get over hate sooner than later. Much sooner. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. There is a world of difference between letting people have their moment of realization and righteous anger versus fanning the flames of anger to achieve virality to gain more followers, more money, and more power. I think people can decide for themselves how far down that spectrum various people and movements have gone. It must be called out, as much for the sake of victims as everyone else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc If you are in the space of anger and hate, then you are not in the space of justice. Anger should just be a waypoint to something greater. Those who tell you otherwise just want to keep you in the space of hate to exploit you.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    > There's a difference between letting people express themselves and ratifying hate to fuel more outrage Maybe, but then somebody has to make that call and get it right. Who's going to do that? You? The mob? Giving all ideas the same platform and letting it sort itself out isn't the worst strategy humanity has come up with. You might even call it democratic. And I don't remember refusing to judge something being the same as ratifying it, I thought that was tolerance. But I guess you're either with us, or against us - there can be no other option. /s If letting a few people talk about hate is magically going to convince a large majority, either that's condescending or we're fucked as a species.

The forums for Free Speech in the 60's also came with a lot of what was thought of as perverted toxic nonsense. Some of that is still thought of as unacceptable today.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

There are some very real problems where oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" in order to sort their own problems. New ideas are also inevitable heretical. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a challenge. Trying to not throw the baby out with the bathwater is a challenge.

stcredzero 8y ago
oppressed people of various sorts have a real need to be able to "speak the unspeakable" There's a difference between letting people express themselves and ratifying hate to fuel more outrage. Doing that is throwing the justice baby out with the bathwater -- also because it's more viral and you make more money and get more political power that way.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I'm aware. I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out. It can be hard to figure what is legitimate and righteous anger that is nonetheless Verboten to express and what is merely outrage fuel. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. It gets vastly more complicated when you are trying to do that in some kind of group setting. It easily goes bad places.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I also know that if you are the oppressed person, it can be hard to sort such things out As a person of color, who has also been the victim of other sorts of impropriety, let me say this: If you want the best and most productive life, you want to get over hate sooner than later. Much sooner. It can be hard to find your own voice. It is necessary to have a little latitude when trying to do so. There is a world of difference between letting people have their moment of realization and righteous anger versus fanning the flames of anger to achieve virality to gain more followers, more money, and more power. I think people can decide for themselves how far down that spectrum various people and movements have gone. It must be called out, as much for the sake of victims as everyone else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc If you are in the space of anger and hate, then you are not in the space of justice. Anger should just be a waypoint to something greater. Those who tell you otherwise just want to keep you in the space of hate to exploit you.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- guitarbill 8y ago
  > There's a difference between letting people express themselves and ratifying hate to fuel more outrage Maybe, but then somebody has to make that call and get it right. Who's going to do that? You? The mob? Giving all ideas the same platform and letting it sort itself out isn't the worst strategy humanity has come up with. You might even call it democratic. And I don't remember refusing to judge something being the same as ratifying it, I thought that was tolerance. But I guess you're either with us, or against us - there can be no other option. /s If letting a few people talk about hate is magically going to convince a large majority, either that's condescending or we're fucked as a species.