5 ms·

Quick Thoughts on the Google Walkout

20 points by cribbles 8y ago

malvosenior 8y ago
> "James Damore was fired after publishing an article internally that argued that women were inferior coders." That's an absolute and complete misrepresentation of what Damore discussed in his memo. Hard to take this article seriously when it leads with a lie.
- bassman9000 8y ago
  Came to this. If "quick thoughts" are to be valuable, author needs to accurately synthezise. Clearly missed the point.
kough 8y ago
It will be interesting to see if we programmers can capture more of the value of our labor by forming unions. This walkout is exactly the sort of thing that a union would organize. The most salient point of this article (although mentioned quite obliquely) is that: programmers have more power over the companies they work for than they are currently exercising.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  The problem with programmers unionizing is that there is an extreme spread of talent in the industry. If you're a 10X coder it doesn't really behoove you to pull up ranks with all of the 1X coders. It's the top end of the scale that is commanding high salaries and they're the ones with the leverage over large companies (since they're very difficult to replace).
  - kartan 8y ago
    > If you're a 10X coder it doesn't really behoove you to pull up ranks with all of the 1X coders. I do not get the point. If someone is a 10x coder should that developer accept sexual harassment?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I do not get the point. If someone is a 10x coder should that developer accept sexual harassment? No. However, they might not want to accept lowering their individual negotiating power by averaging it down to the collective's level. Historically, a problem with movements of utopian ideals, is that they tend to be disconnected with reality while their adherents keep doubling down. Eventually, everyone is accused, and most everyone outside of the most fanatical true believers are frightened someone else will find out what it is they really think. Examples of this can be found cutting across different root cultures, different continents, and different eras. Many of the examples are concentrated in the 20th century, however.
      - kartan 8y ago
        > Historically, a problem with movements of utopian ideals, is that they tend to be disconnected with reality while their adherents keep doubling down. Eventually, everyone is accused, and most everyone outside of the most fanatical true believers are frightened someone else will find out what it is they really think. This kind of unions already exists, like for example the Screen Actors Guild‐American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (and actors have way more than 10x difference between them). Bun in your opinion unions - like https://arkiv.sverigesingenjorer.se/About-us/ https://arkiv.sverigesingenjorer.se/About-us/ that work in other countries - will cause disconnection with reality the raise of fanatical believes and utterly chaos. > Examples of this can be found cutting across different root cultures, different continents, and different eras. Many of the examples are concentrated in the 20th century, however. Maybe we mean something different when talking about unions. Can you give me an example so I can see what do you refer to?
        stcredzero 8y ago
        For starters, just about every regime that billed itself as communist.
    - rasz 8y ago
      10x contributors at Google dond accept sexual harassment, they are the ones dishing it out with impunity
  - untog 8y ago
    Are programmers really that unique in that sense? Any profession has people that are considerably more talented than others. (I'm also not at all convinced by the 10x developer myth. There are lots of developers more talented than others... they are senior developers, or whatever role exists beyond that in your company)
    - kareemsabri 8y ago
      Not sure typical union professions do.
      - untog 8y ago
        What about actors? They're incredibly unionised, and incredibly split in earning potential.
        kareemsabri 8y ago
        Hmm, that's true. I forgot about actors.
        berbec 8y ago
        Audra McDonald belongs to the same union as the understudy ensemble member. If Equity can manage it, I'm sure we can too.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I'm also not at all convinced by the 10x developer myth. I've yet to meet a 10x code writer who was really worth it. Difficulties in dealing on an interpersonal level usually counteracted whatever advantage they could bring to a team. Much more valuable are the 10x managers. In truth, they're more like 2x or 3x, but they are quite rare though they are quite real.
      - xiphias2 8y ago
        What I have seen more are 0.1x managers. They may be just 10% of the managers, but the problem is that if you have a deep hierarchy, you just need one 0.1x manager in the hierarchy to ruin your project.
  - jaggederest 8y ago
    There are a lot of unions that involve "superstar" style distributions of labor and equity, and they manage it just fine. For example players unions, the DGA and SAG/AFTRA all have about as extreme a distribution as you could imagine. The key is to set minimums for performance, not maximums. That prevents exploitation without limiting individual performance.
stcredzero 8y ago
To me, this is a symptom of Google transforming into just another BigCo riding its own coattails, with just an ideology of its own greatness. The ability to remove people through accusations outside of a rigorous and impartial process is simply too great a power not to go abused. All the more the shame that there's a certain degree of real need and idealism behind the justification. I'm talking about both accusations of interpersonal impropriety and accusations of attitudes of social injustice. Peter Boghossian and others have discussed the idea that Intersectionality has become like a religion. The way that people use accusations in that belief system are eerily similar to the way religious people used to make accusations of immorality in the past. (Often for power and material gain.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_bQTxNT-K8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_bQTxNT-K8 Perhaps they have accurately assessed that Google has such a glass jaw in terms of its perceived need for top “talent” that it is hyper sensitive to any PR that might lead prospective employees not to consider them. Google could easily replace its own numbers 4X over and wind up with pretty much the same level of talent. The problem isn't the talent. It's the operational knowledge embodied in its workforce. If I were Google's management, I'd be thinking of some sort of way to wrest back that source of worker power. Unfortunately, I think the upper management of Google are themselves true believers, and to stay in power, they'll have to maintain a faction inside Google loyal to them personally. Under the surface, the inner political life of Google may be getting uglier. EDIT: The way to wrest back power from the worker pool, would be to distribute it in small enough pieces, such that any one group is replaceable. Then set all of the groups against each other. Maybe the atmosphere of inter-group accusation brought about by Intersectionality is actually desired by upper management at Google?
jstewartmobile 8y ago
That was one serious, no-bullshit, to-the-point write-up there. I will have to read more from this Yves Smith.
purplezooey 8y ago
The voting rate of to those aged 18-29 is twenty percent. Thus a Google walkout isn't very interesting.

20 points by cribbles 8y ago

> "James Damore was fired after publishing an article internally that argued that women were inferior coders." That's an absolute and complete misrepresentation of what Damore discussed in his memo. Hard to take this article seriously when it leads with a lie.

bassman9000 8y ago
Came to this. If "quick thoughts" are to be valuable, author needs to accurately synthezise. Clearly missed the point.

kough 8y ago

It will be interesting to see if we programmers can capture more of the value of our labor by forming unions. This walkout is exactly the sort of thing that a union would organize. The most salient point of this article (although mentioned quite obliquely) is that: programmers have more power over the companies they work for than they are currently exercising.

malvosenior 8y ago
The problem with programmers unionizing is that there is an extreme spread of talent in the industry. If you're a 10X coder it doesn't really behoove you to pull up ranks with all of the 1X coders. It's the top end of the scale that is commanding high salaries and they're the ones with the leverage over large companies (since they're very difficult to replace).
- kartan 8y ago
  > If you're a 10X coder it doesn't really behoove you to pull up ranks with all of the 1X coders. I do not get the point. If someone is a 10x coder should that developer accept sexual harassment?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I do not get the point. If someone is a 10x coder should that developer accept sexual harassment? No. However, they might not want to accept lowering their individual negotiating power by averaging it down to the collective's level. Historically, a problem with movements of utopian ideals, is that they tend to be disconnected with reality while their adherents keep doubling down. Eventually, everyone is accused, and most everyone outside of the most fanatical true believers are frightened someone else will find out what it is they really think. Examples of this can be found cutting across different root cultures, different continents, and different eras. Many of the examples are concentrated in the 20th century, however.
    - kartan 8y ago
      > Historically, a problem with movements of utopian ideals, is that they tend to be disconnected with reality while their adherents keep doubling down. Eventually, everyone is accused, and most everyone outside of the most fanatical true believers are frightened someone else will find out what it is they really think. This kind of unions already exists, like for example the Screen Actors Guild‐American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (and actors have way more than 10x difference between them). Bun in your opinion unions - like https://arkiv.sverigesingenjorer.se/About-us/ https://arkiv.sverigesingenjorer.se/About-us/ that work in other countries - will cause disconnection with reality the raise of fanatical believes and utterly chaos. > Examples of this can be found cutting across different root cultures, different continents, and different eras. Many of the examples are concentrated in the 20th century, however. Maybe we mean something different when talking about unions. Can you give me an example so I can see what do you refer to?
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        For starters, just about every regime that billed itself as communist.
  - rasz 8y ago
    10x contributors at Google dond accept sexual harassment, they are the ones dishing it out with impunity
- untog 8y ago
  Are programmers really that unique in that sense? Any profession has people that are considerably more talented than others. (I'm also not at all convinced by the 10x developer myth. There are lots of developers more talented than others... they are senior developers, or whatever role exists beyond that in your company)
  - kareemsabri 8y ago
    Not sure typical union professions do.
    - untog 8y ago
      What about actors? They're incredibly unionised, and incredibly split in earning potential.
      - kareemsabri 8y ago
        Hmm, that's true. I forgot about actors.
      - berbec 8y ago
        Audra McDonald belongs to the same union as the understudy ensemble member. If Equity can manage it, I'm sure we can too.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I'm also not at all convinced by the 10x developer myth. I've yet to meet a 10x code writer who was really worth it. Difficulties in dealing on an interpersonal level usually counteracted whatever advantage they could bring to a team. Much more valuable are the 10x managers. In truth, they're more like 2x or 3x, but they are quite rare though they are quite real.
    - xiphias2 8y ago
      What I have seen more are 0.1x managers. They may be just 10% of the managers, but the problem is that if you have a deep hierarchy, you just need one 0.1x manager in the hierarchy to ruin your project.
- jaggederest 8y ago
  There are a lot of unions that involve "superstar" style distributions of labor and equity, and they manage it just fine. For example players unions, the DGA and SAG/AFTRA all have about as extreme a distribution as you could imagine. The key is to set minimums for performance, not maximums. That prevents exploitation without limiting individual performance.

stcredzero 8y ago

To me, this is a symptom of Google transforming into just another BigCo riding its own coattails, with just an ideology of its own greatness. The ability to remove people through accusations outside of a rigorous and impartial process is simply too great a power not to go abused. All the more the shame that there's a certain degree of real need and idealism behind the justification. I'm talking about both accusations of interpersonal impropriety and accusations of attitudes of social injustice. Peter Boghossian and others have discussed the idea that Intersectionality has become like a religion. The way that people use accusations in that belief system are eerily similar to the way religious people used to make accusations of immorality in the past. (Often for power and material gain.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_bQTxNT-K8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_bQTxNT-K8 Perhaps they have accurately assessed that Google has such a glass jaw in terms of its perceived need for top “talent” that it is hyper sensitive to any PR that might lead prospective employees not to consider them. Google could easily replace its own numbers 4X over and wind up with pretty much the same level of talent. The problem isn't the talent. It's the operational knowledge embodied in its workforce. If I were Google's management, I'd be thinking of some sort of way to wrest back that source of worker power. Unfortunately, I think the upper management of Google are themselves true believers, and to stay in power, they'll have to maintain a faction inside Google loyal to them personally. Under the surface, the inner political life of Google may be getting uglier. EDIT: The way to wrest back power from the worker pool, would be to distribute it in small enough pieces, such that any one group is replaceable. Then set all of the groups against each other. Maybe the atmosphere of inter-group accusation brought about by Intersectionality is actually desired by upper management at Google?

jstewartmobile 8y ago

That was one serious, no-bullshit, to-the-point write-up there. I will have to read more from this Yves Smith.

purplezooey 8y ago

The voting rate of to those aged 18-29 is twenty percent. Thus a Google walkout isn't very interesting.