7 ms·

Making trains run on time

40 points by crunchiebones 8y ago

r00fus 8y ago
So the major issues listed are a) passenger exit/entry crowding and b) passengers too close to the cars. Why not look at the amusement park industry- they have bypassed these by having strict controls on ingress/egress for the ride - you get on one side and exit the other. Also they have guardrails or sliding doors preventing any suicides or dangerous behavior from interfering with the ride (trains in HK/Shenzhen had that years ago). I fail to see why AI or a panopticon is needed to solve these problems.
- bovine3dom 8y ago
  The Paris metro has ingress / egress on opposite sides at at least one terminus. It seems to work very well.
  - jackweirdy 8y ago
    This is referred to as the Spanish Solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      Interesting. I wonder why NS (Dutch railways) don't have this solution given that trains in The Netherlands have difficulty driving on time. Accidents with passengers (e.g. suicide) also happen, but if a train arrives late during prime hours then they'll lose even more given its loaded and passengers cannot board before passengers left.
      - Doxin 8y ago
        Just to note: the dutch railways don't "have difficulty driving on time". 90% of all trains ride on-time on average. And keep in mind that anything more than 2 minutes off-schedule counts. Last time I checked we're in the world top-5 with regards to running on time. That said: Improvements are always welcome ;-)
- zakki 8y ago
  I don’t think strict control on ingress and egress solve the problem. It is probably add more delay. Imagine in a train in Japan. There are hundreds passenger with different destinations. How do they line up to get on and get off the train?
  - fulafel 8y ago
    If it's more predictable, it might slow things down but still help the trains run on time.
  - rangibaby 8y ago
    Japanese do line up to get on the train. During Tokyo rush hour there are people whose job it is to jam passengers in so the doors can close
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    There are a couple of things that are important. First, (and it's a bit of a catch 22), because the trains are almost never late, they always stop at the same platform according to the schedule. When passengers go to catch a train, they always know ahead of time what platform to go to. This massively reduces people rushing about to catch the train. On the platforms, there are indications where the doors will be when the train stops. The trains always stop in exactly the same place. Waiting passengers line up on the platform just in front of where the doors will be. They often paint a box on the pavement to show where to line up and people stand in those boxes -- moving down the platform to an box that isn't too full. When the train stops, waiting passengers move to either side of the door. They wait until all passengers have exited the train before trying to board the train themselves. Japan is a rule following culture. You can't grow up here without having that drilled into your head. People then find it common sense to wait for their turn rather than trying to get on the train early. People on the train line up in front of the doors. People who are not getting off the train move into the centre of the cars. Again: rule following culture, common sense, etc. Finally, Japan is not particularly litigious. If you try to get on/off the train when the doors are closing, it doesn't stop closing for you. It closes hard. I swear they even open it a bit and then slam it shut on you again on purpose. It hurts. Basically, it's your penalty for being a dumb ass ;-) You literally can not hold the door open. It will keep crashing shut on you until you get out of the way. The last point I can think about at the moment is that they keep track of statistics and set the schedules based on data, not hope. I was at the train station the other day and noticed that one of the train's schedule ran 1 minute later during rush hour than when it was not so busy. This is to accommodate the passengers getting on and off, presumably. That's the precision of their schedules -- 1 minute makes a difference to them. In the UK, the train isn't even officially late unless it is more than 10 minutes late and I think that's 90% of their problem.
niftich 8y ago
Load balancing between doors is an interesting problem. Sometimes, people have reasons for picking a particular door. They may be able to see inside and tell that there's fewer people in that part of the carriage, or they might intend to disembark at a station where that door's placement will confer an advantage: this is especially common in grade-separated rapid transit systems, where the placement of paths towards exits varies from station to station. But at other times, people will try to board wherever they are able. This is likely the case if they try to board after the 'scheduled departure', which is the situation the article points to as a source of delays. And herein lies the problem: presumably, the passengers' concern about catching the train at all outweighs their desire to pick the best door. This solution is least likely to solve the situations that cause the most disruption, and is most likely to improve boarding at times when passengers have time and ability to make a discretionary choice anyway. A low-tech strategy to try is to designate one door per carriage as an exit door, and the rest as entry doors. At a station, open the exit door first, and the volume of exiting people will curtail attempts to embark. Then after a few-second delay, open the rest of the doors and allow people to enter. This is made more effective with physical separation between embarkation doors and exit doors, such that the two streams of people don't interfere. Some newer airport people mover stations have two tracks and 3 platforms: trains discharge passengers to the outer platforms, while people wait on the center platform until the entry doors open a few seconds later. This setup is also common in amusement parks.
- tmjwid 8y ago
  The problem with a single designated exit door is that on super busy trains, if you on the wrong end you'll cause more problems trying to get off through all the people who aren't. Japan has already solved this with a very low tech solution. The right hand side of the door is where people line to to enter, the left hand side is where people exit. As a commuter in the UK that can't remember when my train home was last on time, I find it hard to believe that it's the passenger fault when we are told it's either infrastructure failure or no reason is given. I've switched to the tram train route that's just opened in Sheffield and that is seeing the same problems. Northern trains running late causing a backlog. I really miss Japan's rail system.
- dannypgh 8y ago
Animats 8y ago
A classic on this subject, from British Rail: "The Pain Train". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGMSFWv4Vgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGMSFWv4Vgk
benjiweber 8y ago
The Jubilee line on the Tube has platform doors which help; http://citytransport.info/Digi/P1170633a.jpg http://citytransport.info/Digi/P1170633a.jpg people queue by the doors until train arrives, safely separated from the train. People stack up on each side of the doors and let passengers off through the middle before boarding https://i.pinimg.com/474x/19/91/b9/1991b9aa93463b7fa254e1d598708f01--london-transport-the-tubes.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/474x/19/91/b9/1991b9aa93463b7fa254e1d59... Some stations have multiple routes to the platform to improve spread https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d0/75/91/d075917d0c293cf183461e99b93de3cf--poster-design-london-transport.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d0/75/91/d075917d0c293cf183461e99b...

40 points by crunchiebones 8y ago

So the major issues listed are a) passenger exit/entry crowding and b) passengers too close to the cars. Why not look at the amusement park industry- they have bypassed these by having strict controls on ingress/egress for the ride - you get on one side and exit the other. Also they have guardrails or sliding doors preventing any suicides or dangerous behavior from interfering with the ride (trains in HK/Shenzhen had that years ago). I fail to see why AI or a panopticon is needed to solve these problems.

bovine3dom 8y ago
The Paris metro has ingress / egress on opposite sides at at least one terminus. It seems to work very well.
- jackweirdy 8y ago
  This is referred to as the Spanish Solution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Interesting. I wonder why NS (Dutch railways) don't have this solution given that trains in The Netherlands have difficulty driving on time. Accidents with passengers (e.g. suicide) also happen, but if a train arrives late during prime hours then they'll lose even more given its loaded and passengers cannot board before passengers left.
    - Doxin 8y ago
      Just to note: the dutch railways don't "have difficulty driving on time". 90% of all trains ride on-time on average. And keep in mind that anything more than 2 minutes off-schedule counts. Last time I checked we're in the world top-5 with regards to running on time. That said: Improvements are always welcome ;-)
zakki 8y ago
I don’t think strict control on ingress and egress solve the problem. It is probably add more delay. Imagine in a train in Japan. There are hundreds passenger with different destinations. How do they line up to get on and get off the train?
- fulafel 8y ago
  If it's more predictable, it might slow things down but still help the trains run on time.
- rangibaby 8y ago
  Japanese do line up to get on the train. During Tokyo rush hour there are people whose job it is to jam passengers in so the doors can close
- mikekchar 8y ago
  There are a couple of things that are important. First, (and it's a bit of a catch 22), because the trains are almost never late, they always stop at the same platform according to the schedule. When passengers go to catch a train, they always know ahead of time what platform to go to. This massively reduces people rushing about to catch the train. On the platforms, there are indications where the doors will be when the train stops. The trains always stop in exactly the same place. Waiting passengers line up on the platform just in front of where the doors will be. They often paint a box on the pavement to show where to line up and people stand in those boxes -- moving down the platform to an box that isn't too full. When the train stops, waiting passengers move to either side of the door. They wait until all passengers have exited the train before trying to board the train themselves. Japan is a rule following culture. You can't grow up here without having that drilled into your head. People then find it common sense to wait for their turn rather than trying to get on the train early. People on the train line up in front of the doors. People who are not getting off the train move into the centre of the cars. Again: rule following culture, common sense, etc. Finally, Japan is not particularly litigious. If you try to get on/off the train when the doors are closing, it doesn't stop closing for you. It closes hard. I swear they even open it a bit and then slam it shut on you again on purpose. It hurts. Basically, it's your penalty for being a dumb ass ;-) You literally can not hold the door open. It will keep crashing shut on you until you get out of the way. The last point I can think about at the moment is that they keep track of statistics and set the schedules based on data, not hope. I was at the train station the other day and noticed that one of the train's schedule ran 1 minute later during rush hour than when it was not so busy. This is to accommodate the passengers getting on and off, presumably. That's the precision of their schedules -- 1 minute makes a difference to them. In the UK, the train isn't even officially late unless it is more than 10 minutes late and I think that's 90% of their problem.

niftich 8y ago

Load balancing between doors is an interesting problem. Sometimes, people have reasons for picking a particular door. They may be able to see inside and tell that there's fewer people in that part of the carriage, or they might intend to disembark at a station where that door's placement will confer an advantage: this is especially common in grade-separated rapid transit systems, where the placement of paths towards exits varies from station to station. But at other times, people will try to board wherever they are able. This is likely the case if they try to board after the 'scheduled departure', which is the situation the article points to as a source of delays. And herein lies the problem: presumably, the passengers' concern about catching the train at all outweighs their desire to pick the best door. This solution is least likely to solve the situations that cause the most disruption, and is most likely to improve boarding at times when passengers have time and ability to make a discretionary choice anyway. A low-tech strategy to try is to designate one door per carriage as an exit door, and the rest as entry doors. At a station, open the exit door first, and the volume of exiting people will curtail attempts to embark. Then after a few-second delay, open the rest of the doors and allow people to enter. This is made more effective with physical separation between embarkation doors and exit doors, such that the two streams of people don't interfere. Some newer airport people mover stations have two tracks and 3 platforms: trains discharge passengers to the outer platforms, while people wait on the center platform until the entry doors open a few seconds later. This setup is also common in amusement parks.

tmjwid 8y ago
The problem with a single designated exit door is that on super busy trains, if you on the wrong end you'll cause more problems trying to get off through all the people who aren't. Japan has already solved this with a very low tech solution. The right hand side of the door is where people line to to enter, the left hand side is where people exit. As a commuter in the UK that can't remember when my train home was last on time, I find it hard to believe that it's the passenger fault when we are told it's either infrastructure failure or no reason is given. I've switched to the tram train route that's just opened in Sheffield and that is seeing the same problems. Northern trains running late causing a backlog. I really miss Japan's rail system.
dannypgh 8y ago

Animats 8y ago

A classic on this subject, from British Rail: "The Pain Train". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGMSFWv4Vgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGMSFWv4Vgk

benjiweber 8y ago

The Jubilee line on the Tube has platform doors which help; http://citytransport.info/Digi/P1170633a.jpg http://citytransport.info/Digi/P1170633a.jpg people queue by the doors until train arrives, safely separated from the train. People stack up on each side of the doors and let passengers off through the middle before boarding https://i.pinimg.com/474x/19/91/b9/1991b9aa93463b7fa254e1d598708f01--london-transport-the-tubes.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/474x/19/91/b9/1991b9aa93463b7fa254e1d59... Some stations have multiple routes to the platform to improve spread https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d0/75/91/d075917d0c293cf183461e99b93de3cf--poster-design-london-transport.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/474x/d0/75/91/d075917d0c293cf183461e99b...