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> Just go on the X subreddit and you will see there actual X users complaining [...] This are complaints for actual X users that update to latest version and ha

> Just go on the X subreddit and you will see there actual X users complaining [...] This are complaints for actual X users that update to latest version and have unpleasantness surprises. this is true for every software > how I get tray icons working (tray icons were removed) They explained the change, they have their reasons, they proposed alternatives to people who wanted to keep them around. What do you need more? https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/2017/08/31/status-icons-and-gnome/ https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/2017/08/31/status-icons-and-gno...

simion314 8y ago
You are impling the posts on the gnome subreddit are made only by the people that are unhappy, you should also check the answers to the posts, those are regular users and not one time posters, some of them are developers, developers of extensions or themes and they alo have complains, plus the plans for Gnome4 admint most of the technical issues mentioned.
- derefr 8y ago
  No, the GP isn't assuming any astro-turfing campaign; they're just talking about the known effect where every time e.g. Facebook's UX changes, a million people come out against the change, and how they liked it better the way it was. Yet, those same people were often against "the way it was" when it was new, too! People just hate change (esp. change that requires them to change how their own stuff works to accomodate it—such as devs when their platform changes), regardless of whether the given makes for a more or less coherent experience; and regardless of whether the person complaining would have liked the system more or less if it was already like that in the first place.
  - cvbxcvb 8y ago
    This.
  - simion314 8y ago
    This is a bad excuse to ignore the bugs and issues reported on reddit and forums. Also is a bad excuse to ignore feedback, like you seen in latest release the developers are still moving thing around like the app menu, if a user would have complained about it an year ago you all would have defended Gnome design , now the devs said it was useless and not used and is a great design to remove it. The solution is to do more usability tests and not rely on what some "expert" thinks an UI should be.
    - derefr 8y ago
      Frequently these complaints are in response to changes enacted because of usability testing. Are you suggesting that that kind of feedback shouldn't be ignored? What would you have the developers do, at that point? Sometimes, the problem is simply that some users really are using your software wrong. Not compared to how you think they should be using it—compared to how everyone else is using it, and so (via usability tests) how you're building it to be used. Or, to put that another way: https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/ Before you rebut: I'm not saying that that's true in this case. (I'm not saying it's not, either; I don't know enough about this case to judge.) I'm just clarifying the reasoning behind the general principle. People hate change no matter how justified and evidence-based it is. So inevitably, in a project, there's going to be some number of bug/issues filed where the underlying motivation comes down to "the user wanted to whine because they had to learn something new." It's not an excuse to ignore all user-filed bugs/issues; it's just an argument against people who insist that 100% of user complaints should be taken seriously. There is a "malingering quotient"—a certain percentage of complaints (different for each project) that comes down to people trying to avoid the work of coping with change. See also, the Lizardman quotient: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-...
      - simion314 8y ago
        I researched the usability testing Gnome made, and I found only 1 related to Gnome3 but if you can point me to the study where they found that removing system tray is a good idea I really want to see how this study was made. The truth is one more more Gnome3 designers that had the vision on how Gnome should look, that branding should be non optional, they did not know what XFCE is.
znpy 8y ago
> this is true for every software That doesn't happen in the emacs subreddit. Your argument is invalid.

simion314 8y ago

You are impling the posts on the gnome subreddit are made only by the people that are unhappy, you should also check the answers to the posts, those are regular users and not one time posters, some of them are developers, developers of extensions or themes and they alo have complains, plus the plans for Gnome4 admint most of the technical issues mentioned.

derefr 8y ago
No, the GP isn't assuming any astro-turfing campaign; they're just talking about the known effect where every time e.g. Facebook's UX changes, a million people come out against the change, and how they liked it better the way it was. Yet, those same people were often against "the way it was" when it was new, too! People just hate change (esp. change that requires them to change how their own stuff works to accomodate it—such as devs when their platform changes), regardless of whether the given makes for a more or less coherent experience; and regardless of whether the person complaining would have liked the system more or less if it was already like that in the first place.
- cvbxcvb 8y ago
  This.
- simion314 8y ago
  This is a bad excuse to ignore the bugs and issues reported on reddit and forums. Also is a bad excuse to ignore feedback, like you seen in latest release the developers are still moving thing around like the app menu, if a user would have complained about it an year ago you all would have defended Gnome design , now the devs said it was useless and not used and is a great design to remove it. The solution is to do more usability tests and not rely on what some "expert" thinks an UI should be.
  - derefr 8y ago
    Frequently these complaints are in response to changes enacted because of usability testing. Are you suggesting that that kind of feedback shouldn't be ignored? What would you have the developers do, at that point? Sometimes, the problem is simply that some users really are using your software wrong. Not compared to how you think they should be using it—compared to how everyone else is using it, and so (via usability tests) how you're building it to be used. Or, to put that another way: https://xkcd.com/1172/ https://xkcd.com/1172/ Before you rebut: I'm not saying that that's true in this case. (I'm not saying it's not, either; I don't know enough about this case to judge.) I'm just clarifying the reasoning behind the general principle. People hate change no matter how justified and evidence-based it is. So inevitably, in a project, there's going to be some number of bug/issues filed where the underlying motivation comes down to "the user wanted to whine because they had to learn something new." It's not an excuse to ignore all user-filed bugs/issues; it's just an argument against people who insist that 100% of user complaints should be taken seriously. There is a "malingering quotient"—a certain percentage of complaints (different for each project) that comes down to people trying to avoid the work of coping with change. See also, the Lizardman quotient: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-...
    - simion314 8y ago
      I researched the usability testing Gnome made, and I found only 1 related to Gnome3 but if you can point me to the study where they found that removing system tray is a good idea I really want to see how this study was made. The truth is one more more Gnome3 designers that had the vision on how Gnome should look, that branding should be non optional, they did not know what XFCE is.

znpy 8y ago

> this is true for every software That doesn't happen in the emacs subreddit. Your argument is invalid.