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Define intolerance. That's the whole problem. So being "intolerant of intolerance" is meaningless except as something that signals a different meaning - differe

Define intolerance. That's the whole problem. So being "intolerant of intolerance" is meaningless except as something that signals a different meaning - different lines, different behavior, different standards - to every listener.

JoshTriplett 8y ago
> Define intolerance That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well, and the intolerant spend a lot of time quibbling over the definition of in a desperate attempt to derail their inclusion in it. Or, more seriously: treating other people as unwelcome or hated or less than human, for reasons other than being hateful and intolerant.
- tunesmith 8y ago
  Since I don't understand it remarkably well, I must be intolerant? Nice.
  - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
    The real issue with the parent comment is that it's not sustainable in the end. When they say "everyone but (x) understands this", they are alluding to a sense of shared understanding. That, to a certain extent, is a culture. In a society with several cultures, alluding to a sense of shared understanding is virtually impossible, because the interpretation is at root a cultural one. There's simply no way to guarantee that what they mean by "intolerant" is exactly what everyone else means.
- wycs 8y ago
  Yes. It is all very obvious. For example, suppose a marginalized group uses the hashtag #killallwhitemen to express the disempowerment they feel from the historical weight of white privilege. This, I think we can all agree, is an expression of righteous outrage through hyperbole, not intolerance. In fact, "white men" in this context does not refer to any person or group of people, rather a self-reenforcing system of oppression and privilege. In this way, we see "#killallwhitemen" is tool of enforcing tolerance in an intolerant society. Now suppose someone were to make an argument like this: "We observe sexual dimorphism to some degree in most animals. Thus our prior should be that it is unlikely that women and men are 100% psychologically identical even when controlling for environment. Because of this it would be epistemically incorrect to assume differences in representation in engineering firms can be explained entirely by discrimination." This argument is clearly reactionary and must be censored, for we know 100% that any difference in preferences, abilities and outcomes between men and women must be explained by environmental effects. To think otherwise would be exclusionary and thus an example of intolerance we must be intolerant of, even in our own thoughts. The person making this argument should be shunned. Even raising the argument should result in immediate deplatforming and perhaps loss of employability. Even this notion of a prior in which you allow yourself to assign a probability to reactionary thoughts must fought, for even a very low prior can be overcome with enough sensory experience.
  - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
    It will never cease to amaze me that none of that is hyperbole. I've run into so many people who argue those exact two points, without a shred of self-awareness.
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    (In case it doesn't go without saying, lest silence be interpreted as agreeing with this response: no, both of these parody arguments are completely ridiculous. Both of these have superficial similarity to useful discussions, but have intentionally turned them into absurdist parody in order to mock actual notions of tolerance.)
    - mooseburger 8y ago
      They both happened. It's an accurate description of the state of discourse.
      - skedaddle 8y ago
        No they didn't. In the two situations he is clearly alluding to 1) the person admitted it was hurtful and unacceptable and that they should not have said it, and the mainstream publisher said they would not have hired her without this understanding 2) the argument the person made before being fired was not simply that there is a non-zero amount of sexual dimorphism in humans, it was concretely that womens' neuroticism, agreeableness, and other feeling-sy tendencies may explain why they are on average worse leaders, underrepresented, underpaid, etc.
        mooseburger 8y ago
        1) Splitting hairs. Swap it for Sarah Jeong if you like. 2) Could quite easily be a true statement, if a controversial and uncomfortable one.
        orangecat 8y ago
        it was concretely that womens' neuroticism, agreeableness, and other feeling-sy tendencies may explain why they are on average worse leaders, underrepresented, underpaid, etc. Remove "worse leaders" (which was not in Damore's memo), and it's a plausible theory supported by quite a bit of evidence.
- msla 8y ago
  > That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well Another example of trying to shut down discussion. For example, a substantial number of people around the world understand 'tolerance' to mean 'nobody insults my religion' which, of course, means 'nobody depicts homosexual relationships'. Therefore, depicting homosexuality is intolerant, hein?
  - happilycentrist 8y ago
    What's worse, is that the people howling about "intolerance" are engaged in a purity spiral, and demand we be a part of it. It's a circular firing squad, which demands more and more extreme signals of virtue by the day - and those people found insufficiently faithful will be the next week's witches to burn. It's an ideological death-cult that won't stop eating itself until there are literally only two of them left, facing one another, pointing, and screaming "HERETIC" at the tops of their lungs.
    - emerged 8y ago
      It's a recurring weakness of societies throughout history. There does seem to be strong social push back against it which hopefully implies we are collectively building immunity.
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    > Another example of trying to shut down discussion. If I were attempting to shut down discussion, I wouldn't have included a more serious version of the definition, in addition to the observation that it's remarkable how often people who want to play rules-lawyer with terms like "intolerant" or "bigot" or "racist" or "sexist" seem primarily interested in carefully excluding their own behavior, or that of groups they consider themselves affiliated with, or in general how often they're speaking from a position as a member of a privileged group. > For example, a substantial number of people around the world understand 'tolerance' to mean 'nobody insults my religion' which, of course, means 'nobody depicts homosexual relationships'. Hence tolerating everyone except the intolerant. Membership in one marginalized group does not provide a free pass for intolerance against another, nor does it entitle you to attack another or make another feel unwelcome. You deserve to not be discriminated against or excluded on the basis of your religious beliefs, but not if you're using them to attack other people or deny their rights based on (for instance) gender or orientation. Likewise for cis women intolerant of transwomen, white women intolerant of people of color, LG in LGBTQ+ intolerant of the B and T, and so on.
- happilycentrist 8y ago
  The gospel according to Inquisitor Torquemada? The people seeking to hammer down on free speech look more and more like a religious cult by the day. Good grief.
- defen 8y ago
  > That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well I'm not sure I agree with that, since the definition of intolerance is obviously rooted in societal norms. In 1950 the statement "two men should not be allowed to marry each other" would not have been seen as intolerant by almost anyone, regardless of political affiliation or sexuality. It would have been considered practically a tautology - so obviously true that no one even spent any time thinking about it. Today, many people in the USA would consider the statement intolerant. So I think your definition just kicks the can down the road to "how do we define who is tolerant?"
- manfredo 8y ago
  In my experience, introspective people that constantly doubt and rethink their perception of intolerance are the most tolerant people I've met. Those that have strong conviction in their ideas of intolerance and assume that their said ideas about it are universal tend to be the opposite. And plenty of people quibble over what it means to be "intolerant" not to avoid their own inclusion in the term, but to expand the term to include their own political opponents under the umbrella of intolerance.
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    > In my experience, introspective people that constantly doubt and rethink their perception of intolerance are the most tolerant people I've met. I've found this to be true of many different areas. The more certain you are, the less you're open to continuous learning. Have a well-calibrated idea of your own understanding, and scale your confidence accordingly. In general, the concept of tolerance and intolerance should be fairly universal; the implementation of tolerance relies on a substantial and growing amount of working social knowledge.
- newsbinator 8y ago
  > "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio
stcredzero 8y ago
Define intolerance. That's the whole problem No comrade. You are missing the point. Only our intolerance is in the service of tolerance. Only our intolerance is good and will bring about the worker's paradise. Their intolerance is bad. In fact, those who tolerate the wrong people are intolerant, and therefore we must be intolerant to them to make the world more tolerant. Also: Our potassium is superior. Also: War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. -- George Orwell
woodruffw 8y ago
Any system of principles that, left unchecked, would threaten the set of establishing (or meta) principles that allow it to exist. For example: (neo-)Nazism is an intolerant ideology because, left unchecked, it would seek to destroy the systems (broadly liberal democracies) that allow people to discuss it.

JoshTriplett 8y ago

> Define intolerance That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well, and the intolerant spend a lot of time quibbling over the definition of in a desperate attempt to derail their inclusion in it. Or, more seriously: treating other people as unwelcome or hated or less than human, for reasons other than being hateful and intolerant.

tunesmith 8y ago
Since I don't understand it remarkably well, I must be intolerant? Nice.
- tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
  The real issue with the parent comment is that it's not sustainable in the end. When they say "everyone but (x) understands this", they are alluding to a sense of shared understanding. That, to a certain extent, is a culture. In a society with several cultures, alluding to a sense of shared understanding is virtually impossible, because the interpretation is at root a cultural one. There's simply no way to guarantee that what they mean by "intolerant" is exactly what everyone else means.
wycs 8y ago
Yes. It is all very obvious. For example, suppose a marginalized group uses the hashtag #killallwhitemen to express the disempowerment they feel from the historical weight of white privilege. This, I think we can all agree, is an expression of righteous outrage through hyperbole, not intolerance. In fact, "white men" in this context does not refer to any person or group of people, rather a self-reenforcing system of oppression and privilege. In this way, we see "#killallwhitemen" is tool of enforcing tolerance in an intolerant society. Now suppose someone were to make an argument like this: "We observe sexual dimorphism to some degree in most animals. Thus our prior should be that it is unlikely that women and men are 100% psychologically identical even when controlling for environment. Because of this it would be epistemically incorrect to assume differences in representation in engineering firms can be explained entirely by discrimination." This argument is clearly reactionary and must be censored, for we know 100% that any difference in preferences, abilities and outcomes between men and women must be explained by environmental effects. To think otherwise would be exclusionary and thus an example of intolerance we must be intolerant of, even in our own thoughts. The person making this argument should be shunned. Even raising the argument should result in immediate deplatforming and perhaps loss of employability. Even this notion of a prior in which you allow yourself to assign a probability to reactionary thoughts must fought, for even a very low prior can be overcome with enough sensory experience.
- tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
  It will never cease to amaze me that none of that is hyperbole. I've run into so many people who argue those exact two points, without a shred of self-awareness.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  (In case it doesn't go without saying, lest silence be interpreted as agreeing with this response: no, both of these parody arguments are completely ridiculous. Both of these have superficial similarity to useful discussions, but have intentionally turned them into absurdist parody in order to mock actual notions of tolerance.)
  - mooseburger 8y ago
    They both happened. It's an accurate description of the state of discourse.
    - skedaddle 8y ago
      No they didn't. In the two situations he is clearly alluding to 1) the person admitted it was hurtful and unacceptable and that they should not have said it, and the mainstream publisher said they would not have hired her without this understanding 2) the argument the person made before being fired was not simply that there is a non-zero amount of sexual dimorphism in humans, it was concretely that womens' neuroticism, agreeableness, and other feeling-sy tendencies may explain why they are on average worse leaders, underrepresented, underpaid, etc.
      - mooseburger 8y ago
        1) Splitting hairs. Swap it for Sarah Jeong if you like. 2) Could quite easily be a true statement, if a controversial and uncomfortable one.
      - orangecat 8y ago
        it was concretely that womens' neuroticism, agreeableness, and other feeling-sy tendencies may explain why they are on average worse leaders, underrepresented, underpaid, etc. Remove "worse leaders" (which was not in Damore's memo), and it's a plausible theory supported by quite a bit of evidence.
msla 8y ago
> That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well Another example of trying to shut down discussion. For example, a substantial number of people around the world understand 'tolerance' to mean 'nobody insults my religion' which, of course, means 'nobody depicts homosexual relationships'. Therefore, depicting homosexuality is intolerant, hein?
- happilycentrist 8y ago
  What's worse, is that the people howling about "intolerance" are engaged in a purity spiral, and demand we be a part of it. It's a circular firing squad, which demands more and more extreme signals of virtue by the day - and those people found insufficiently faithful will be the next week's witches to burn. It's an ideological death-cult that won't stop eating itself until there are literally only two of them left, facing one another, pointing, and screaming "HERETIC" at the tops of their lungs.
  - emerged 8y ago
    It's a recurring weakness of societies throughout history. There does seem to be strong social push back against it which hopefully implies we are collectively building immunity.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  > Another example of trying to shut down discussion. If I were attempting to shut down discussion, I wouldn't have included a more serious version of the definition, in addition to the observation that it's remarkable how often people who want to play rules-lawyer with terms like "intolerant" or "bigot" or "racist" or "sexist" seem primarily interested in carefully excluding their own behavior, or that of groups they consider themselves affiliated with, or in general how often they're speaking from a position as a member of a privileged group. > For example, a substantial number of people around the world understand 'tolerance' to mean 'nobody insults my religion' which, of course, means 'nobody depicts homosexual relationships'. Hence tolerating everyone except the intolerant. Membership in one marginalized group does not provide a free pass for intolerance against another, nor does it entitle you to attack another or make another feel unwelcome. You deserve to not be discriminated against or excluded on the basis of your religious beliefs, but not if you're using them to attack other people or deny their rights based on (for instance) gender or orientation. Likewise for cis women intolerant of transwomen, white women intolerant of people of color, LG in LGBTQ+ intolerant of the B and T, and so on.
happilycentrist 8y ago
The gospel according to Inquisitor Torquemada? The people seeking to hammer down on free speech look more and more like a religious cult by the day. Good grief.
defen 8y ago
> That thing everyone except the intolerant seem to understand remarkably well I'm not sure I agree with that, since the definition of intolerance is obviously rooted in societal norms. In 1950 the statement "two men should not be allowed to marry each other" would not have been seen as intolerant by almost anyone, regardless of political affiliation or sexuality. It would have been considered practically a tautology - so obviously true that no one even spent any time thinking about it. Today, many people in the USA would consider the statement intolerant. So I think your definition just kicks the can down the road to "how do we define who is tolerant?"
manfredo 8y ago
In my experience, introspective people that constantly doubt and rethink their perception of intolerance are the most tolerant people I've met. Those that have strong conviction in their ideas of intolerance and assume that their said ideas about it are universal tend to be the opposite. And plenty of people quibble over what it means to be "intolerant" not to avoid their own inclusion in the term, but to expand the term to include their own political opponents under the umbrella of intolerance.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  > In my experience, introspective people that constantly doubt and rethink their perception of intolerance are the most tolerant people I've met. I've found this to be true of many different areas. The more certain you are, the less you're open to continuous learning. Have a well-calibrated idea of your own understanding, and scale your confidence accordingly. In general, the concept of tolerance and intolerance should be fairly universal; the implementation of tolerance relies on a substantial and growing amount of working social knowledge.
newsbinator 8y ago
> "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobellis_v._Ohio

stcredzero 8y ago

Define intolerance. That's the whole problem No comrade. You are missing the point. Only our intolerance is in the service of tolerance. Only our intolerance is good and will bring about the worker's paradise. Their intolerance is bad. In fact, those who tolerate the wrong people are intolerant, and therefore we must be intolerant to them to make the world more tolerant. Also: Our potassium is superior. Also: War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. -- George Orwell

woodruffw 8y ago

Any system of principles that, left unchecked, would threaten the set of establishing (or meta) principles that allow it to exist. For example: (neo-)Nazism is an intolerant ideology because, left unchecked, it would seek to destroy the systems (broadly liberal democracies) that allow people to discuss it.