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I was with you until: > But I guess this is boring by comparison to imagining that a historical financial center only functions through ill-gotten commercial i

I was with you until: > But I guess this is boring by comparison to imagining that a historical financial center only functions through ill-gotten commercial intelligence. Nobody said anything about "only functioning because..." The entire basis for your position seems to be that an intelligence apparatus can only do exactly one thing at a time. It can either be for diplomatic reasons OR commercial spying, not both... In reality governments extract as much value out of the intelligence networks and collected information as they can. If the collected information is going to help a domestic business interest against a foreign one (e.g. contract negotiations, mergers, sales, etc) you can bet your butt that tips will be supplied. You really think that the US government doesn't routinely "tip" off Boeing and several European countries Airbus? Countries look out for their own self interests beyond anything else. Expecting that they'll only do so some of the time rather than all of the time, seems like an opinion based more around how you'd wish a country to act morally, rather than the reality on the ground.

BurningFrog 8y ago
>You really think that the US government doesn't routinely "tip" off Boeing and several European countries Airbus? >Countries look out for their own self interests beyond anything else. And of course, governments only help local companies like this, if they in turn help their government.
strictnein 8y ago
The US doesn't tip off American companies with data gathered by its intelligence agencies. This was a decision made back during the Clinton years. You're welcome to share your evidence to the contrary.
- travmatt 8y ago
  I’m pretty sure until recently they didn’t even share information that would help protect companies from state level actors.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  NSA spying on Petrobras[0]. NSA spying on EADS (Airbus)[1]. NSA spying on Eurocopter[2]. NSA spying on Siemens[3]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-petrobras/nsa-spying-on-petrobras-if-proven-is-industrial-espionage-rousseff-idUSBRE98817N20130909 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-petr... [1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bnd-und-nsa-die-chronologie-des-spionageskandals/11722810.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bnd-und-nsa-die-chronolo... [2] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimdienst-affaere-nsa-jubelte-bnd-deutsche-spaehziele-unter-1.2715253 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimdienst-affaere-nsa... [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/edward-snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-1.2511635 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/edward-snowden-says-nsa-engage...
  - strictnein 8y ago
    You're welcome to point out where I said "the US doesn't spy on foreign companies".
    - Someone1234 8y ago
      Snowden said they routinely conduct economic espionage[0] and the CIA tried it too[1]. If you had read the links above (particularly [3]) you'd know this already. [0] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150629/16134031494/nsa-despite-claiming-it-doesnt-engage-economic-espionage-engaged-economic-espionage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150629/16134031494/nsa-d... [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140524/07014427355/former-cia-director-defense-secretary-says-cia-tried-failed-to-do-economic-espionage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140524/07014427355/forme...
    - meowface 8y ago
      The point is that these are clear examples of the NSA engaging in economic espionage, including tipping off US corporations with intelligence. Many countries do it. China is a worse and likely a much more frequent offender than the US, but the US still does it.
      - 8y ago
Kalium 8y ago
> The entire basis for your position seems to be that an intelligence apparatus can only do exactly one thing at a time. It can either be for diplomatic reasons OR commercial spying, not both... I understand fully! Any competent intelligence agency is of course capable of serving more than one purpose at once. I do not in any way, shape, form, or manner believe that an intelligence apparatus is inherently capable of pursuing only a single task. Please accept my apologies for this egregious failure on my part to communicate clearly. You're absolutely, completely right. All of this is completely normal. With that in mind, perhaps potshots at professionals doing things considered normal could be better justified?

BurningFrog 8y ago

>You really think that the US government doesn't routinely "tip" off Boeing and several European countries Airbus? >Countries look out for their own self interests beyond anything else. And of course, governments only help local companies like this, if they in turn help their government.

strictnein 8y ago

The US doesn't tip off American companies with data gathered by its intelligence agencies. This was a decision made back during the Clinton years. You're welcome to share your evidence to the contrary.

travmatt 8y ago
I’m pretty sure until recently they didn’t even share information that would help protect companies from state level actors.
Someone1234 8y ago
NSA spying on Petrobras[0]. NSA spying on EADS (Airbus)[1]. NSA spying on Eurocopter[2]. NSA spying on Siemens[3]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-petrobras/nsa-spying-on-petrobras-if-proven-is-industrial-espionage-rousseff-idUSBRE98817N20130909 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-petr... [1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bnd-und-nsa-die-chronologie-des-spionageskandals/11722810.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bnd-und-nsa-die-chronolo... [2] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimdienst-affaere-nsa-jubelte-bnd-deutsche-spaehziele-unter-1.2715253 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/geheimdienst-affaere-nsa... [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/edward-snowden-says-nsa-engages-in-industrial-espionage-1.2511635 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/edward-snowden-says-nsa-engage...
- strictnein 8y ago
  You're welcome to point out where I said "the US doesn't spy on foreign companies".
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    Snowden said they routinely conduct economic espionage[0] and the CIA tried it too[1]. If you had read the links above (particularly [3]) you'd know this already. [0] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150629/16134031494/nsa-despite-claiming-it-doesnt-engage-economic-espionage-engaged-economic-espionage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150629/16134031494/nsa-d... [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140524/07014427355/former-cia-director-defense-secretary-says-cia-tried-failed-to-do-economic-espionage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140524/07014427355/forme...
  - meowface 8y ago
    The point is that these are clear examples of the NSA engaging in economic espionage, including tipping off US corporations with intelligence. Many countries do it. China is a worse and likely a much more frequent offender than the US, but the US still does it.
    - 8y ago

Kalium 8y ago

> The entire basis for your position seems to be that an intelligence apparatus can only do exactly one thing at a time. It can either be for diplomatic reasons OR commercial spying, not both... I understand fully! Any competent intelligence agency is of course capable of serving more than one purpose at once. I do not in any way, shape, form, or manner believe that an intelligence apparatus is inherently capable of pursuing only a single task. Please accept my apologies for this egregious failure on my part to communicate clearly. You're absolutely, completely right. All of this is completely normal. With that in mind, perhaps potshots at professionals doing things considered normal could be better justified?