8 ms·

In normal world this should be equal to declaring a war, right?

by pleasecalllater 8y ago

thrower123 8y ago
Thank goodness it is not likely to trigger war. Flanders' fields have seen enough blood.
- IMTDb 8y ago
  EDIT: did not know about the english poem "In flanders fields". http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
  - thrower123 8y ago
    Flanders is part of Belgium. In English there's a tradition of talking about this area as Flanders, going back to at least Marlborough, if not the Hundred Years War
    - IMTDb 8y ago
      True. But in this event, the potential would very likely impact all of Belgium, so there is no reason to differentiate flanders from the rest of the country. On top of that, both part of the country has suffered similarly throughout history of wars and bombs, so again there is no need for differentiation here. There are very good reasons to differentiate the north and south part of the country on a lot of subjects since they are so different. This is not one of those reasons. Defense is a federal issue and there is no reasons to make it regional.
      - thrower123 8y ago
        I'm really not trying to imply anything at all here. I'm just referencing this region's history of being a crossroads of empire and the common idiom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields
      - pjc50 8y ago
        I can't believe people are missing the reference to one of the most famous war poems, especially just before Armistice Day. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
        thrower123 8y ago
        Yes, thank you.
    - Insanity 8y ago
      I'm confused by what you mean when saying 'Tradition'? Flanders would be the correct naming for the northern part of Belgium (Vlaanderen). Anyway, as far as the original comment, something much worse would need to happen for it to trigger a war between these two countries. Western Europe has seen enough way the past centuries indeed ;)
pjc50 8y ago
Hardly. This is more of a "stiffly worded letter" or, at the very worst, expulsion of diplomats situation. A certain amount of intra-EU spying goes on all the time and is difficult to stop. The real risk is that the UK needs Belgium's approval for any Brexit deal ... > The information is contained in a confidential report produced by the federal prosecutor for Belgium’s National Security Council, a copy of which was leaked to De Standaard. "Leaked". That provides an excellent pretext for arguing that e.g. British telecoms and IT providers should be excluded from the EU market as they're potentially fronts for British intelligence (a variation on the argument that people make about China all the time)
- yayana 8y ago
  Makes sense to me. Britain is closer to the US than the EU and is probably going to make more money from arbitrage on any tax rates they get that are better than the IS, India, etc than from any legitimate services they can provide..
duxup 8y ago
There would be a lot of wars right now if it was "normal world" ad you define it. I think the intent here matters and it doesn't seem like it was intended to harm the Belgian government or their people. That probabbly matters a lot.
Someone1234 8y ago
Na. Allies have always spied on each other. You just rarely hear about it because the Russian/Chinese/NK/etc spies go on the news/get prosecuted, and the allie's spies get quietly asked to leave and the home country gets a nasty-gram. For example many embassies routinely batch collect all cell phone conversations within range[0], which is quite useful since they're often located in another country's capital city. There's a reason why high level government officials have what are essentially VPN-ed cellphones now. [0] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...
- blancheneige 8y ago
  >Allies have always spied on each other. It's thanks to that kind of complacent commentary that we're shrugging off intelligence agencies hacking into the computers of senators investigating said agencies. What a time to be alive.
  - corndoge 8y ago
    The US should continue to spy on its allies, and as long as this is the case they're perfectly justified in spying on the US. Replace US with any other country and same applies. There's nothing particularly wrong with this arrangement.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      Do you see a point at which spying stops being ok, or any lines that shouldn’t be crossed? The agencies involved in spying don’t have a good track record and often have fairly limited oversight.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    You either get called "complacent" or "naive." This stuff is going to happen regardless of how upset people get, nation states have too much to gain by having more information and very little to lose when they're caught by an allie. And it isn't like this is new to the information revolution either. Countries were spying on each other using the postal service and telegrams, or even eyeballs and fast horses. As an aside your example isn't relevant, the CIA spied on their own government in that example, that is what makes it especially egregious and dangerous, since it impacts the state's own sovereignty. The actual topic at hand was nation-states spying on one another, apples and oranges.

In normal world this should be equal to declaring a war, right?

thrower123 8y ago

Thank goodness it is not likely to trigger war. Flanders' fields have seen enough blood.

IMTDb 8y ago
EDIT: did not know about the english poem "In flanders fields". http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
- thrower123 8y ago
  Flanders is part of Belgium. In English there's a tradition of talking about this area as Flanders, going back to at least Marlborough, if not the Hundred Years War
  - IMTDb 8y ago
    True. But in this event, the potential would very likely impact all of Belgium, so there is no reason to differentiate flanders from the rest of the country. On top of that, both part of the country has suffered similarly throughout history of wars and bombs, so again there is no need for differentiation here. There are very good reasons to differentiate the north and south part of the country on a lot of subjects since they are so different. This is not one of those reasons. Defense is a federal issue and there is no reasons to make it regional.
    - thrower123 8y ago
      I'm really not trying to imply anything at all here. I'm just referencing this region's history of being a crossroads of empire and the common idiom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders_Fields
    - pjc50 8y ago
      I can't believe people are missing the reference to one of the most famous war poems, especially just before Armistice Day. http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fields.htm http://www.greatwar.co.uk/poems/john-mccrae-in-flanders-fiel...
      - thrower123 8y ago
        Yes, thank you.
  - Insanity 8y ago
    I'm confused by what you mean when saying 'Tradition'? Flanders would be the correct naming for the northern part of Belgium (Vlaanderen). Anyway, as far as the original comment, something much worse would need to happen for it to trigger a war between these two countries. Western Europe has seen enough way the past centuries indeed ;)

pjc50 8y ago

Hardly. This is more of a "stiffly worded letter" or, at the very worst, expulsion of diplomats situation. A certain amount of intra-EU spying goes on all the time and is difficult to stop. The real risk is that the UK needs Belgium's approval for any Brexit deal ... > The information is contained in a confidential report produced by the federal prosecutor for Belgium’s National Security Council, a copy of which was leaked to De Standaard. "Leaked". That provides an excellent pretext for arguing that e.g. British telecoms and IT providers should be excluded from the EU market as they're potentially fronts for British intelligence (a variation on the argument that people make about China all the time)

yayana 8y ago
Makes sense to me. Britain is closer to the US than the EU and is probably going to make more money from arbitrage on any tax rates they get that are better than the IS, India, etc than from any legitimate services they can provide..

duxup 8y ago

There would be a lot of wars right now if it was "normal world" ad you define it. I think the intent here matters and it doesn't seem like it was intended to harm the Belgian government or their people. That probabbly matters a lot.

Someone1234 8y ago

Na. Allies have always spied on each other. You just rarely hear about it because the Russian/Chinese/NK/etc spies go on the news/get prosecuted, and the allie's spies get quietly asked to leave and the home country gets a nasty-gram. For example many embassies routinely batch collect all cell phone conversations within range[0], which is quite useful since they're often located in another country's capital city. There's a reason why high level government officials have what are essentially VPN-ed cellphones now. [0] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...

blancheneige 8y ago
>Allies have always spied on each other. It's thanks to that kind of complacent commentary that we're shrugging off intelligence agencies hacking into the computers of senators investigating said agencies. What a time to be alive.
- corndoge 8y ago
  The US should continue to spy on its allies, and as long as this is the case they're perfectly justified in spying on the US. Replace US with any other country and same applies. There's nothing particularly wrong with this arrangement.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    Do you see a point at which spying stops being ok, or any lines that shouldn’t be crossed? The agencies involved in spying don’t have a good track record and often have fairly limited oversight.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  You either get called "complacent" or "naive." This stuff is going to happen regardless of how upset people get, nation states have too much to gain by having more information and very little to lose when they're caught by an allie. And it isn't like this is new to the information revolution either. Countries were spying on each other using the postal service and telegrams, or even eyeballs and fast horses. As an aside your example isn't relevant, the CIA spied on their own government in that example, that is what makes it especially egregious and dangerous, since it impacts the state's own sovereignty. The actual topic at hand was nation-states spying on one another, apples and oranges.