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Compared to what? Sure, if the alternative was stasis where the majority of humanity was stuck in abject poverty, we would preserve the world’s ecosystems, but

Compared to what? Sure, if the alternative was stasis where the majority of humanity was stuck in abject poverty, we would preserve the world’s ecosystems, but humanaity would be mostly miserable (and population would probably shrink violently and dramatically). Meanwhile capitalism has also been gradually eradicating extreme poverty - over a billion lives in the last 20+ years. https://amp.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty https://amp.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end... Is that worth the price? I don’t know. Self preservation and advancement seems to be our thing. I can agree that capitalism has massive, terrible problems. But these sorts of essays tend not to be an argument, they are a supposition laced with unjustified certainty, with the fig lead covering the suggested solution being some form of collectivism. Humanity’s large scale experiments in that regard were not environmental paradises either, though - arguably far worse than capitalist democracies! One might assume it’s possible to find a third way. It will be very hard. It will take a long time. It’s a conversation worth having. But a large part of the West is in denial that there is even a problem. I don’t think that’s a capitalism problem, that’s a humanity problem.

FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
You can’t congratulate capitalism for lifting people out of poverty when it was capitalism (with its friends like racism and colonialism) that put them there. Capitalism is inherently wrong, unless you belong to the winners. And no, a programmer making 200k a year isn’t a winner. He is bribed with toys and a comfortable lifestyle, at the cost of immense suffering outside of his view, to support a system that is eventually going to cost him as well. The only winners are in the board rooms of multinationals. Capitalism is flawed from its very core and no matter how many fixes and laws and regulations you implement, it will always be rotten. Just one leader like Trump and all its nastiness will show again by simply removing those laws and regulations. Capitalism cannot be fixed, but, like cancer, it must be cut out. The solution is of course anarchism. No gods, no masters, no ceo’s. That will most likely mean no iPhones, as keeping global trade alive will be impossible without the dictatorships of corporations. but that is a small price to no longer have a system that rewards poisoning rivers halfway across the world to make things for a bored population that is completely divorced from its society.
- nyokodo 8y ago
  Basically all of humanity was in extreme poverty until a rapid uptick in living standards started coincident with the industrial revolution that has exploded in the last 40 years. The uptick was because worker productivity aided by machines is vastly greater than in subsistence farming, and industrial production is far more efficient than pre-industrial. This combination has lead to a miracle in the rising of human living standards. To suggest that capitalism put people into extreme poverty is pure ideological distortion.
  - gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
    Not to mention that the same data shows that we are poised to absolutely crush climate change with carbon sequestration, renewables, and innovations in supply chain / logistics in every industry.
- anonuser123456 8y ago
  What a strange fantasy you live in.
- lujim 8y ago
  You started with an incorrect assertion that contradicts every data point available and end by advocating anarchy and a general collapse of civilization. I admire your conviction.
  - gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
    Communists are insane and violent individuals who don't care about data and reality.
    - lujim 8y ago
      lol you got downvoted.... I can't imagine what kind of person wouldn't agree with this statement. Falling for Communism in 1917 is one thing, but falling for it with access to a 20th century history book... well that's a mental disorder.
lujim 8y ago
The fact that anyone could downvote this post is telling. It's completely reasonable and easily verifiable with data. You even cited the Economist which is a reputable resource. It's also reasonable to assert that self preservation is arguably the most important thing to individual humans as well as all other species on earth. You acknowledge the counter argument that capitalism isn't perfect. You also admit that while it may be possible to find a new system, it may be difficult to implement and take a long time. You end by encouraging an open conversation. Politically motivated people have become completely detached from reality, irrational, and delusional.

FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago

You can’t congratulate capitalism for lifting people out of poverty when it was capitalism (with its friends like racism and colonialism) that put them there. Capitalism is inherently wrong, unless you belong to the winners. And no, a programmer making 200k a year isn’t a winner. He is bribed with toys and a comfortable lifestyle, at the cost of immense suffering outside of his view, to support a system that is eventually going to cost him as well. The only winners are in the board rooms of multinationals. Capitalism is flawed from its very core and no matter how many fixes and laws and regulations you implement, it will always be rotten. Just one leader like Trump and all its nastiness will show again by simply removing those laws and regulations. Capitalism cannot be fixed, but, like cancer, it must be cut out. The solution is of course anarchism. No gods, no masters, no ceo’s. That will most likely mean no iPhones, as keeping global trade alive will be impossible without the dictatorships of corporations. but that is a small price to no longer have a system that rewards poisoning rivers halfway across the world to make things for a bored population that is completely divorced from its society.

nyokodo 8y ago
Basically all of humanity was in extreme poverty until a rapid uptick in living standards started coincident with the industrial revolution that has exploded in the last 40 years. The uptick was because worker productivity aided by machines is vastly greater than in subsistence farming, and industrial production is far more efficient than pre-industrial. This combination has lead to a miracle in the rising of human living standards. To suggest that capitalism put people into extreme poverty is pure ideological distortion.
- gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
  Not to mention that the same data shows that we are poised to absolutely crush climate change with carbon sequestration, renewables, and innovations in supply chain / logistics in every industry.
anonuser123456 8y ago
What a strange fantasy you live in.
lujim 8y ago
You started with an incorrect assertion that contradicts every data point available and end by advocating anarchy and a general collapse of civilization. I admire your conviction.
- gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
  Communists are insane and violent individuals who don't care about data and reality.
  - lujim 8y ago
    lol you got downvoted.... I can't imagine what kind of person wouldn't agree with this statement. Falling for Communism in 1917 is one thing, but falling for it with access to a 20th century history book... well that's a mental disorder.

lujim 8y ago

The fact that anyone could downvote this post is telling. It's completely reasonable and easily verifiable with data. You even cited the Economist which is a reputable resource. It's also reasonable to assert that self preservation is arguably the most important thing to individual humans as well as all other species on earth. You acknowledge the counter argument that capitalism isn't perfect. You also admit that while it may be possible to find a new system, it may be difficult to implement and take a long time. You end by encouraging an open conversation. Politically motivated people have become completely detached from reality, irrational, and delusional.