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It's a perfectly valid rhetorical device. It's called "litotes", and it often conveys a distinct meaning compared to "collapsing" the negatives into a single po

by OskarS 8y ago

It's a perfectly valid rhetorical device. It's called "litotes", and it often conveys a distinct meaning compared to "collapsing" the negatives into a single positive. It's been used liberally by figures such as Homer, Jonathan Swift, Robert Frost, Fredrick Douglass and Shakespeare (as well as pretty much every great writer throughout history). For instance, saying "it's not without issues" usually means something different from "it has issues". In the former case, you probably intending a meaning something similar to "it's has issues, but none of them are serious", while the latter conveys just what it says. The exact thing your trying to communicate obviously varies with context, but it is generally distinct from the "collapsed case" In this particular case, "Not depressing news" puts an emphasis on the fact that most news is depressing, and that this site is different. "Uplifting news" does not communicate that as effectively. Now, it's true that George Orwell complained about a similar construction in Politics and the English Language, but that book is full of terrible ideas about language, and you're doing yourself a disservice if you take any of his advice too seriously.

quietbritishjim 8y ago
> For instance, saying "it's not without issues" usually means something different from "it has issues". Interesting that you go on to say that "it's not without issues" is milder than "it has issues". To me it's the opposite, like a short form of "Is it without issues? No way!" I guess it depends on context and, particularly, how much sarcasm can be detected in the tone of voice (if said out loud). > In this particular case, "Not depressing news" puts an emphasis on the fact that most news is depressing, and that this site is different. "Uplifting news" does not communicate that as effectively. In any case, I agree with this simple explanation.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  Your username implies that you're from the UK. Isn't this a well-known cultural difference between British and... just about any other culture? I know we Dutch people get caught by that quite often. (Funny enough, in the Groningen region the expression "kon minder" ("could be worse") is often used as high praise. Whatever it applies to is implied to be fantastic, almost perfect, in a "but don't get cocky about it" kind of way)
  - quietbritishjim 8y ago
    You're right. Actually, I remember a story [1] of a British army commander asking his American superior (on a UN mission) for help by saying "Things are a bit sticky, sir". Unfortunately this was taken to mean that everything was fine, so no reinforcements were sent. I understand that the Dutch are very much at the other end of the spectrum - very direct and straightforward. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard
    - vanderZwan 8y ago
      Honestly, after living abroad for five years in total (with one year back in the Netherlands inbetween), that "direct and straightforward" part feels like it has been co-opted as an excuse to not bother with looking at things from the point of view of someone else and reaching out.
  - palunon 8y ago
    > Isn't this a well-known cultural difference between British and... just about any other culture? At least in French, litotes are meant to amplify the negative. The classical example being in Le Cid, "Go, I don't hate you" from Chimène to Rodrigue (who just killed her father), meaning "I love you". Other example can be found, "Not OK" meaning totally unacceptable, "Not bad" meaning excellent, or "Not stupid" meaning very clever. Of course, all litotes can be interpreted literally, and you often need context or tone to convey the meaning
- OskarS 8y ago
  Yeah, the change of meaning is often very subtle, and people can sometimes disagree on the direction of the change. Usually though, the device is used to express a kind of understatement. Compare these statements: He's not bad looking He's good looking Which one would you say is stronger? I think most people would say that the affirmative "He's good looking" is stronger than the first version. Another example: It's not without flaws It's flawed If you say "not without flaws", you're usually saying something like "it's good despite its flaws", so that version understates the case compared to the other one. Again, though: my point was mostly that the meanings are distinct and that language is not mathematics. You can't just replace two minus signs with a positive one and expect the to get the same thing on the other side. Nor should you follow any simple "rule" like that blindly.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    "Which one would you say is stronger?" I would go for "He's not bad looking" being stronger - but then again I'm from the UK :-)
  - quietbritishjim 8y ago
    I don't think that authors you mentioned would have bothered using this as a creative flourish if it was just meant to be interpreted in an extremely literal way. The whole fact that they bothered means that there's some alternative meaning, whether the slightly sarcastic one I understand or something else.
- ams6110 8y ago
  "It's not without issues" to me means I might object to parts of it but overall I'm positive, or I feel the issues can be accommodated, tolerated, or corrected. "It has issues" is to me a stronger, more general objection to the whole thing.
animal531 8y ago
You're not wrong, but I think the OP was rather looking at the psychology of the words, rather than their implication.

by OskarS 8y ago

quietbritishjim 8y ago

> For instance, saying "it's not without issues" usually means something different from "it has issues". Interesting that you go on to say that "it's not without issues" is milder than "it has issues". To me it's the opposite, like a short form of "Is it without issues? No way!" I guess it depends on context and, particularly, how much sarcasm can be detected in the tone of voice (if said out loud). > In this particular case, "Not depressing news" puts an emphasis on the fact that most news is depressing, and that this site is different. "Uplifting news" does not communicate that as effectively. In any case, I agree with this simple explanation.

vanderZwan 8y ago
Your username implies that you're from the UK. Isn't this a well-known cultural difference between British and... just about any other culture? I know we Dutch people get caught by that quite often. (Funny enough, in the Groningen region the expression "kon minder" ("could be worse") is often used as high praise. Whatever it applies to is implied to be fantastic, almost perfect, in a "but don't get cocky about it" kind of way)
- quietbritishjim 8y ago
  You're right. Actually, I remember a story [1] of a British army commander asking his American superior (on a UN mission) for help by saying "Things are a bit sticky, sir". Unfortunately this was taken to mean that everything was fine, so no reinforcements were sent. I understand that the Dutch are very much at the other end of the spectrum - very direct and straightforward. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    Honestly, after living abroad for five years in total (with one year back in the Netherlands inbetween), that "direct and straightforward" part feels like it has been co-opted as an excuse to not bother with looking at things from the point of view of someone else and reaching out.
- palunon 8y ago
  > Isn't this a well-known cultural difference between British and... just about any other culture? At least in French, litotes are meant to amplify the negative. The classical example being in Le Cid, "Go, I don't hate you" from Chimène to Rodrigue (who just killed her father), meaning "I love you". Other example can be found, "Not OK" meaning totally unacceptable, "Not bad" meaning excellent, or "Not stupid" meaning very clever. Of course, all litotes can be interpreted literally, and you often need context or tone to convey the meaning
OskarS 8y ago
Yeah, the change of meaning is often very subtle, and people can sometimes disagree on the direction of the change. Usually though, the device is used to express a kind of understatement. Compare these statements: He's not bad looking He's good looking Which one would you say is stronger? I think most people would say that the affirmative "He's good looking" is stronger than the first version. Another example: It's not without flaws It's flawed If you say "not without flaws", you're usually saying something like "it's good despite its flaws", so that version understates the case compared to the other one. Again, though: my point was mostly that the meanings are distinct and that language is not mathematics. You can't just replace two minus signs with a positive one and expect the to get the same thing on the other side. Nor should you follow any simple "rule" like that blindly.
- arethuza 8y ago
  "Which one would you say is stronger?" I would go for "He's not bad looking" being stronger - but then again I'm from the UK :-)
- quietbritishjim 8y ago
  I don't think that authors you mentioned would have bothered using this as a creative flourish if it was just meant to be interpreted in an extremely literal way. The whole fact that they bothered means that there's some alternative meaning, whether the slightly sarcastic one I understand or something else.
ams6110 8y ago
"It's not without issues" to me means I might object to parts of it but overall I'm positive, or I feel the issues can be accommodated, tolerated, or corrected. "It has issues" is to me a stronger, more general objection to the whole thing.

animal531 8y ago

You're not wrong, but I think the OP was rather looking at the psychology of the words, rather than their implication.