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That's extremely naive. China is not 'cheating' more than any previous power. In fact, having been cheated badly they know that's there no such thing as playin

That's extremely naive. China is not 'cheating' more than any previous power. In fact, having been cheated badly they know that's there no such thing as playing nice. As for 'Orwellian', there's a big difference between what you see on TV and reality...

Kaveren 8y ago
Disappearances of citizens with forced apologies, if you say anything against the government you are crazy, Internet about as free as a house in the Hollywood Hills, other human rights abuses, social credit scores, total government surveillance. Sounds pretty bad to me.
- ElBarto 8y ago
  I trust you often visit China and know how it is.
  - Kaveren 8y ago
    That's not a denial that anything I said in the above comment is factually correct. It's like being told you can't judge what color an orange if you've never eaten one.
    - ElBarto 8y ago
      You can't discuss the taste of an orange if you only ever saw oranges on TV. I won't reply to strawman arguments from people who have never set foot in China. Suffice it to say that the epithet "Orwellian" does not represent life in China at all.
      - Kaveren 8y ago
        You did not deny any of these claims about the Chinese state: 1. Government surveillance of domestic citizens is far more intrusive than in any Western country. (NSA revelations are not a refutation). 2. Prominent citizens get disappeared. There is little to no transparency in the judicial process. 3. There is no freedom of speech in China. You cannot criticize the government from within the borders effectively without being in danger. 4. China does not have a free Internet in the sense any Western country does. 5. Social credit scores exist, and will be used to reinforce the government's authority. 6. There are ongoing human rights abuses in China other than what I've already mentioned. You can evade this all you want and talk about how nobody can possibly know about China unless they go there. But you can't refute any of these, so that is all you can do.
        hanchinese 8y ago
        > There is little to no transparency in the judicial process. my father sued the company owned by Chinese vice Premier's son, he won the case after fighting it all the way to the supreme court. we are average joes without any connection to those on the top. you can keep telling me how I am being repressed by the Chinese government, I will just look at you with sympathy as you are the victim of your brainwashing media.
        ksec 8y ago
        >my father sued the company owned by Chinese vice Premier's son, he won the case after fighting it all the way to the supreme court. If it was only a business issues, I don't doubt you could win. After all it is only money, which I am sure they have plenty of.
        acct1771 8y ago
        This is the same argument that people make when they say "but I worked for Microsoft, and I never heard about any NSA backdoors!".
      - abc-xyz 8y ago
        As someone who lived in China for many years, I can say that while the people are generally nice (which is true for every country), the government is the definition of evil. The fact that you don't see innocent people thrown in concentration camps because of their race, or people having their organs harvested, etc. doesn't mean it isn't happening. In fact, by living in China you're less likely to understand what's happening because the government aggressively censor anything they disagree with, rewrite history, and silence those who dare to speak up. What I, as a foreigner, did experience in China was me being denied by 9 out of 10 non-4-5 star hotels, landlords refusing to let me rent there, even call my Chinese friend to inform him that foreigners are not allowed in the building when I borrowed the place during Spring festival. I've also experienced my weixin posts being shadowbanned, I've known two people who got deported (one simply because she refused to sleep with the disgusting visa officer). There's no process of appeal. You can try to go to court but they'll always side with their own, and if your visa gets denied then they are under no obligation to tell you why or for how long. While it's possible to enjoy life in China and live there for many years without issues, one day it will all come crumbling down.. it doesn't matter if you study at the best university, or work for a top company, or have millions invested in the country. The fact that they can so casually kidnap the interpol president, or their most famous movie star, should tell you that normal people, whether foreign or Chinese, doesn't stand a chance, and it's only a matter of time before the social credit system ends up affecting you and other people who choose to live in a bubble.
        baybal2 8y ago
        > What I, as a foreigner, did experience in China was me being denied by 9 out of 10 non-4-5 star hotels, Use online checkin > I've also experienced my weixin posts being shadowbanned Get a new acc on a sim card bought for cash. Don't forget to spoof your imsi > (one simply because she refused to sleep with the disgusting visa officer) That's the situation where filling charges with procurator would've made sense. The tricks is to go to file charges with as many procurators as possible, like 20 or more of them. From district level, to municipal, to provincial. I personally know foreigners who, indeed, won court cases in China with civil torts against minor officials, with one actually being against an another procurator who refused to file charges of fraud against an Alibaba vendor upon a complaint. > China and live there for many years without issues, one day it will all come crumbling down.. it doesn't matter if you study at the best university, or work for a top company, or have millions invested in the country. Heard of Chinese Green card? Worth considering. At least with it, they can jail you, but they can't "get rid of you" easily.

Kaveren 8y ago

Disappearances of citizens with forced apologies, if you say anything against the government you are crazy, Internet about as free as a house in the Hollywood Hills, other human rights abuses, social credit scores, total government surveillance. Sounds pretty bad to me.

ElBarto 8y ago
I trust you often visit China and know how it is.
- Kaveren 8y ago
  That's not a denial that anything I said in the above comment is factually correct. It's like being told you can't judge what color an orange if you've never eaten one.
  - ElBarto 8y ago
    You can't discuss the taste of an orange if you only ever saw oranges on TV. I won't reply to strawman arguments from people who have never set foot in China. Suffice it to say that the epithet "Orwellian" does not represent life in China at all.
    - Kaveren 8y ago
      You did not deny any of these claims about the Chinese state: 1. Government surveillance of domestic citizens is far more intrusive than in any Western country. (NSA revelations are not a refutation). 2. Prominent citizens get disappeared. There is little to no transparency in the judicial process. 3. There is no freedom of speech in China. You cannot criticize the government from within the borders effectively without being in danger. 4. China does not have a free Internet in the sense any Western country does. 5. Social credit scores exist, and will be used to reinforce the government's authority. 6. There are ongoing human rights abuses in China other than what I've already mentioned. You can evade this all you want and talk about how nobody can possibly know about China unless they go there. But you can't refute any of these, so that is all you can do.
      - hanchinese 8y ago
        > There is little to no transparency in the judicial process. my father sued the company owned by Chinese vice Premier's son, he won the case after fighting it all the way to the supreme court. we are average joes without any connection to those on the top. you can keep telling me how I am being repressed by the Chinese government, I will just look at you with sympathy as you are the victim of your brainwashing media.
        ksec 8y ago
        >my father sued the company owned by Chinese vice Premier's son, he won the case after fighting it all the way to the supreme court. If it was only a business issues, I don't doubt you could win. After all it is only money, which I am sure they have plenty of.
        acct1771 8y ago
        This is the same argument that people make when they say "but I worked for Microsoft, and I never heard about any NSA backdoors!".
    - abc-xyz 8y ago
      As someone who lived in China for many years, I can say that while the people are generally nice (which is true for every country), the government is the definition of evil. The fact that you don't see innocent people thrown in concentration camps because of their race, or people having their organs harvested, etc. doesn't mean it isn't happening. In fact, by living in China you're less likely to understand what's happening because the government aggressively censor anything they disagree with, rewrite history, and silence those who dare to speak up. What I, as a foreigner, did experience in China was me being denied by 9 out of 10 non-4-5 star hotels, landlords refusing to let me rent there, even call my Chinese friend to inform him that foreigners are not allowed in the building when I borrowed the place during Spring festival. I've also experienced my weixin posts being shadowbanned, I've known two people who got deported (one simply because she refused to sleep with the disgusting visa officer). There's no process of appeal. You can try to go to court but they'll always side with their own, and if your visa gets denied then they are under no obligation to tell you why or for how long. While it's possible to enjoy life in China and live there for many years without issues, one day it will all come crumbling down.. it doesn't matter if you study at the best university, or work for a top company, or have millions invested in the country. The fact that they can so casually kidnap the interpol president, or their most famous movie star, should tell you that normal people, whether foreign or Chinese, doesn't stand a chance, and it's only a matter of time before the social credit system ends up affecting you and other people who choose to live in a bubble.
      - baybal2 8y ago
        > What I, as a foreigner, did experience in China was me being denied by 9 out of 10 non-4-5 star hotels, Use online checkin > I've also experienced my weixin posts being shadowbanned Get a new acc on a sim card bought for cash. Don't forget to spoof your imsi > (one simply because she refused to sleep with the disgusting visa officer) That's the situation where filling charges with procurator would've made sense. The tricks is to go to file charges with as many procurators as possible, like 20 or more of them. From district level, to municipal, to provincial. I personally know foreigners who, indeed, won court cases in China with civil torts against minor officials, with one actually being against an another procurator who refused to file charges of fraud against an Alibaba vendor upon a complaint. > China and live there for many years without issues, one day it will all come crumbling down.. it doesn't matter if you study at the best university, or work for a top company, or have millions invested in the country. Heard of Chinese Green card? Worth considering. At least with it, they can jail you, but they can't "get rid of you" easily.