4 ms·

Words are cheap.

by solipsism 8y ago

Words are cheap.

buboard 8y ago
and so are walkouts
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  are they? I'm sure someone could put a dollar figure on the productivity lost to Google by this action.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    Whatever loss of productivity would be immensely offset by the optics of taking actions against such a walk out.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty culture is as shitty culture does and it is perpetuated by every single individual in the organization and their individual choices. I'm not impressed with people who point fingers. They are usually people wanting someone else to fix a problem so they don't have to actually change.
- solipsism 8y ago
  What? You asked, essentially, "why would they walking out if their CEO supports their cause?" Although I thought the answer was a bit obvious, I answered... Words are cheap and the employees want to see action. Your response is to talk about pointing fingers? I don't understand your point. What do you have against Google employees making demands of their managers? My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." I'm pretty sure employees know that fingers are being pointed at them. Employees are constantly evaluated, and management places expectations on them (both work related and cultural) that those employees must meet, at penalty of termination. It seems like you're questioning the idea that the fingers should point both ways... by saying that the fingers point both ways.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Yes, "words are cheap" is so obvious, it goes without saying. It doesn't add anything substantive to the discussion. So saying that to me really doesn't cast any light whatsoever on this situation for me.
    - solipsism 8y ago
      If someone at the top is sincerely interested in resolving this satisfactorily, why the walk-out? I don't get it. That just sounds so naive. If I knew what your real disconnect with this was, I'd try to help you understand. Let's walk through the basics: * Employees have a problem with management. * Management says "we'll work on it" like they always do. * Employees may or may not believe, but they want to see action taking place. Employees feel secure enough at their privileged jobs to make a statement by "walking out", with the explicit threat of further action if demands aren't met. * Management encourages the employees... And will have to decide if they mean business, in part based on the walk-outs.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        That just sounds so naive. I appear to be the top ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard here (under a different handle). Historical surveys suggest the membership was possibly as much as 98% male at one time. I get nothing but crapped on when I say that. I get nothing but mocked when I suggest that is indicative of personal competence on my part. People mostly admit to recognizing me at all in order to say something dickish. It's relatively rare that I get genuine support. I got to the leaderboard by not grandstanding, not pissing on all the guys here, etc. I'm not naive, though I may well be on my way out the door because I've been thrown off of plenty of other forums for saying "The emperor has no clothes." It's generally a socially unacceptable thing to do. But it doesn't come out of naiveté by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever.
        solipsism 8y ago
        I don't know anything about you. The statement is naive. Perhaps it was just poorly phrased. I never implied it had anything to do with you as a person. I don't really care about your prowess at "winning" at HN. I don't have any clue what you're going on about. Edit: oh, and if you regularly get kicked off of forums, perhaps it had to do with situations like these? You seem to be overreacting in a very strange and hard to follow way, that comes off kind of aggressively.
- Harimwakairi 8y ago
  > What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Part of the reason to go to the walkout was to find out what to do. People didn't just stand there doing nothing. They listened to women speak about their experiences and ask for specific, concrete actions from attendees that would lead to less sexual harassment, bias, and associated garbage.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Okay, cool. Is there some reason this piece couldn't be done after hours? (Or, alternately) Is there some reason this couldn't be framed as "We are taking time off to discuss this amongst ourselves and better understand the problem space" without it being framed as a walk-out with a flyer left on the desk filled with their opinion? Do these things have to go hand in hand?
    - tomjakubowski 8y ago
      The company created a problem. It makes sense that their employees are using company time to work on fixing it.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        Yes, and the comment you are replying to allows for that as a possibility without it being framed as "a walk-out." I'm not suggesting they shouldn't take company time. I'm wondering why this can't be done differently. And so far the replies I'm getting don't actually address such inquiries.
- danans 8y ago
  > What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? By handling interactions I have with women at work cognizant of the many ways in which their experience in the workplace differs from mine. Also, I think about my daughter, and how I'd want her to be treated if she worked here. > They are usually people wanting someone else to fix a problem so they don't have to actually change. I can't personally fix the problem of (IMO wrong) decisions made by management on these issues. But I can help increase the pressure (public and internal) on them to make concrete changes.
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  That escalated quickly, to the extent that it reflects poorly on your original question.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    You aren't anyone I particularly care to hear criticism from of me personally for any reason whatsoever, especially not publicly on HN.
    - anigbrowl 8y ago
      It's not a criticism of you personally. The last time we had a conversation was before you created this HN account and I didn't look at you bio before reacting to your comment.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I don't care what your justification or excuse is. If you* can't figure out that Mz and Her First Name and Middle Name are the same person, you aren't paying attention. And that means your criticism is completely vacuous on the face of it, even before we get into other reasons I have no interest in your opinion that would likely be verboten here as some kind of personal attack. * You personally, not the general "you".
        anigbrowl 8y ago
        I was not paying attention, and frankly Michele (the only name of yours I recall) is not exactly uncommon. It has taken me nearly a year to notice you were using a different HN account, since I have no interest in mounting personal attacks against you.

Words are cheap.

buboard 8y ago

and so are walkouts

tomjakubowski 8y ago
are they? I'm sure someone could put a dollar figure on the productivity lost to Google by this action.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Whatever loss of productivity would be immensely offset by the optics of taking actions against such a walk out.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

So is grandstanding by people with well paid, cushy as hell jobs who are happy to point fingers. My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Because all the policy in the world can't per se fix a shitty culture. Shitty culture is as shitty culture does and it is perpetuated by every single individual in the organization and their individual choices. I'm not impressed with people who point fingers. They are usually people wanting someone else to fix a problem so they don't have to actually change.

solipsism 8y ago
What? You asked, essentially, "why would they walking out if their CEO supports their cause?" Although I thought the answer was a bit obvious, I answered... Words are cheap and the employees want to see action. Your response is to talk about pointing fingers? I don't understand your point. What do you have against Google employees making demands of their managers? My mother always told me "When you point a finger at others, you have three fingers pointing back at you." I'm pretty sure employees know that fingers are being pointed at them. Employees are constantly evaluated, and management places expectations on them (both work related and cultural) that those employees must meet, at penalty of termination. It seems like you're questioning the idea that the fingers should point both ways... by saying that the fingers point both ways.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Yes, "words are cheap" is so obvious, it goes without saying. It doesn't add anything substantive to the discussion. So saying that to me really doesn't cast any light whatsoever on this situation for me.
  - solipsism 8y ago
    If someone at the top is sincerely interested in resolving this satisfactorily, why the walk-out? I don't get it. That just sounds so naive. If I knew what your real disconnect with this was, I'd try to help you understand. Let's walk through the basics: * Employees have a problem with management. * Management says "we'll work on it" like they always do. * Employees may or may not believe, but they want to see action taking place. Employees feel secure enough at their privileged jobs to make a statement by "walking out", with the explicit threat of further action if demands aren't met. * Management encourages the employees... And will have to decide if they mean business, in part based on the walk-outs.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      That just sounds so naive. I appear to be the top ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard here (under a different handle). Historical surveys suggest the membership was possibly as much as 98% male at one time. I get nothing but crapped on when I say that. I get nothing but mocked when I suggest that is indicative of personal competence on my part. People mostly admit to recognizing me at all in order to say something dickish. It's relatively rare that I get genuine support. I got to the leaderboard by not grandstanding, not pissing on all the guys here, etc. I'm not naive, though I may well be on my way out the door because I've been thrown off of plenty of other forums for saying "The emperor has no clothes." It's generally a socially unacceptable thing to do. But it doesn't come out of naiveté by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever.
      - solipsism 8y ago
        I don't know anything about you. The statement is naive. Perhaps it was just poorly phrased. I never implied it had anything to do with you as a person. I don't really care about your prowess at "winning" at HN. I don't have any clue what you're going on about. Edit: oh, and if you regularly get kicked off of forums, perhaps it had to do with situations like these? You seem to be overreacting in a very strange and hard to follow way, that comes off kind of aggressively.
Harimwakairi 8y ago
> What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? Part of the reason to go to the walkout was to find out what to do. People didn't just stand there doing nothing. They listened to women speak about their experiences and ask for specific, concrete actions from attendees that would lead to less sexual harassment, bias, and associated garbage.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  Okay, cool. Is there some reason this piece couldn't be done after hours? (Or, alternately) Is there some reason this couldn't be framed as "We are taking time off to discuss this amongst ourselves and better understand the problem space" without it being framed as a walk-out with a flyer left on the desk filled with their opinion? Do these things have to go hand in hand?
  - tomjakubowski 8y ago
    The company created a problem. It makes sense that their employees are using company time to work on fixing it.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Yes, and the comment you are replying to allows for that as a possibility without it being framed as "a walk-out." I'm not suggesting they shouldn't take company time. I'm wondering why this can't be done differently. And so far the replies I'm getting don't actually address such inquiries.
danans 8y ago
> What are these people personally doing to ensure that they are respecting women, creating the right kind of social climate at work, etc? By handling interactions I have with women at work cognizant of the many ways in which their experience in the workplace differs from mine. Also, I think about my daughter, and how I'd want her to be treated if she worked here. > They are usually people wanting someone else to fix a problem so they don't have to actually change. I can't personally fix the problem of (IMO wrong) decisions made by management on these issues. But I can help increase the pressure (public and internal) on them to make concrete changes.
anigbrowl 8y ago
That escalated quickly, to the extent that it reflects poorly on your original question.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  You aren't anyone I particularly care to hear criticism from of me personally for any reason whatsoever, especially not publicly on HN.
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    It's not a criticism of you personally. The last time we had a conversation was before you created this HN account and I didn't look at you bio before reacting to your comment.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I don't care what your justification or excuse is. If you* can't figure out that Mz and Her First Name and Middle Name are the same person, you aren't paying attention. And that means your criticism is completely vacuous on the face of it, even before we get into other reasons I have no interest in your opinion that would likely be verboten here as some kind of personal attack. * You personally, not the general "you".
      - anigbrowl 8y ago
        I was not paying attention, and frankly Michele (the only name of yours I recall) is not exactly uncommon. It has taken me nearly a year to notice you were using a different HN account, since I have no interest in mounting personal attacks against you.