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In Medieval Europe, No Outfit Was Complete Without a Personal Eating Knife
- uhtred 8y agoPretty sure I read somewhere that the reason we moved to having blunt knives and forks set at the table was because people used to frequently get into disagreements at the dinner table and stab each other, and so it became a requirement to leave one's dagger/sword whatever outside.
- aequitas 8y agoI believe there is also an etiquette that tells to put a knife down with the cutting side facing inwards towards your plate (ie: not towards your enemy sitting next to you). As otherwise it might be seen as a hostile gesture/provocation.
- MandieD 8y agoHuh. Always wondered why we were painstakingly taught to set tables like that in debutante class (yes, that’s really still a thing among upper/upper-middle class Southern high school girls)
- thaumasiotes 8y agoWhat's a blunt fork? It would be incredibly easy to kill someone with any ordinary metal fork.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y agoI think OP's phrase structure was likely: [[blunt knives] and forks] rather than [blunt [knives and forks]]
- excalibur 8y agoI don't know about incredibly easy, but certainly possible. If you stab somebody in the chest with a fork, it won't penetrate as deeply as a dagger, and there's a higher probability that the ribcage will stop the blow and spare the internal organs. Forks are less-lethal utensils.
- thaumasiotes 8y agoSure, but the chest is the worst possible place to attempt to stab someone. It's full of ribs. Stab them in the head, or the neck, or the gut.
- bdamm 8y agoNot nearly as easy as it would be to kill with a sharp knife. A fork only has so much travel and would have a hard time penetrating tough tissues such as the epicardium. Besides, people don't seem to stay still when being killed, would you? So maybe not so easy to kill with a fork.
- asdff 8y agoYou don't have to stab someone in the heart to kill them. You can definitely nick the femoral artery or damage the windpipe/jugular with a fork. Dead in minutes.
- ASalazarMX 8y ago> It would be incredibly easy to kill someone with any ordinary metal fork Only in the movies, unless you use a grill or pitch fork.
- SerLava 8y agoA knife can easily lethally wound someone before they can react, and before people nearby can help. Are you trying to argue with the idea that forks are safer than knives? Like yeah you can kill someone with a push-pin or a howitzer, but what's your point?
- Piskvorrr 8y agoAny modern fork, essentially. The tips are flat or rounded, never pointy. While it might be possible to kill someone with it, given enough training and/or determination, I don't think it would fall into "incredibly easy".
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoA modern eating fork is a blunt fork. An older fork wasn't really a tool for eating from, but was really more like one of the large meat forks one uses to carve a turkey or otherwise hold meat. The tines were longer and there were often fewer of them. On top of this, they were sharpened to a point. The difference is more like the difference between a sharp kitchen or steak knife and a dulled butter knife (even if it has a point). Sure, you can kill someone with the dull butter knife, if it doesn't bend and you hit the right spots, but it is going to be more difficult than the proper knife.
- stevehawk 8y agoI bet "frequently" here is kind of like how people think the cowboys in the Wild West of the United States had "frequent" shootings, even though it didn't.
- emiliobumachar 8y agoAs knife fights an shootings go, once a lifetime is once too many.
- paganel 8y agoFor what it’s worth I use my Tramontina kitchen knife [1] when eating, it’s not blunt at all, quite the contrary. I also never, ever start a fight or argument during eating, that is a thing my peasant grandma has taught me and my brother pretty well. Her reasoning was something like “if you start an argument during dinner you’re not enjoying the food that all of our family worked pretty hard to put on the table so by doing that you’re disrespecting them and most importantly you’re disrespecting their hard work”. [1] https://www.mychefknives.co.uk/932-tramontina-knives https://www.mychefknives.co.uk/932-tramontina-knives
- sparrish 8y agoBut not a single image of said knives.
- JohnJamesRambo 8y agoYes, what a wasted opportunity! From googling, maybe something like this? http://www.ragnarsmarket.co.uk/product/medieval-eating-knife-personal-knife-type-1 http://www.ragnarsmarket.co.uk/product/medieval-eating-knife... or https://myarmoury.com/review_tod_15c_eating.html https://myarmoury.com/review_tod_15c_eating.html
- klez 8y agoI don't know, but the article says they were similar to daggers. Don't those usually have two edges?
- JohnJamesRambo 8y agoI'm not sure. Wikipedia says- "A dagger is a knife with a very sharp point and one or two sharp edges, typically designed or capable of being used as a thrusting or stabbing weapon."
- beat 8y agoSteven Pinker talks about this in his book Better Angels of our Nature. Ending the habit of personal eating knives was part of the "civilizing process" that drastically reduced the murder rate in Europe, because people stopped walking around armed quite so much.
- tomjakubowski 8y agoSo much for "an armed society is a polite society", I guess.
- x220 8y agoThat premise is true, just not in the way you think. Societies with uncontrollable violence tend to have informal codes of politeness designed to prevent violence and are far more likely to have gangs with honor codes. This does not necessarily make the society less violent, it just means you have more rules to navigate so you don't lose your protection or piss off some powerful person.
- pjc50 8y agoIt was always premised on the idea that implicitly threatening someone with violence is "polite". It also breaks down rapidly when people have had a few drinks.
- x220 8y agoPoliteness is all about rules. A society where people tend to follow complex rules of social interaction is polite, even if it becomes very violent if someone breaks those rules. That's why they are rules in the first place: they are enforced with violence or shame. I don't think I'd be able to find a single large society where people are polite but face no risk of violence or intense social shame when they break the rules.
- tomjakubowski 8y agoInteresting. I suppose I'm guilty of conflating politeness and "civilizedness".
- zwieback 8y agoThe two medieval monks can explain what's going on in that picture: http://the-toast.net/2015/02/11/two-medieval-monks-invent-dinner-parties/ http://the-toast.net/2015/02/11/two-medieval-monks-invent-di...
- kaddio 8y agoWhat would be the fastest way to kill someone with a push-pin? Asking for a friend. I can think of puncturing their eyes or their genitals if I wanted to make the thing painful, but that wouldn't kill them any faster I reckon.
- SEJeff 8y agoLikely via the carotid artery or perhaps the femoral artery if you were up close and very personal, but this is mostly an exercise in futility.
- nurino 8y agoI'm not sure you could reach those arteries with a push-pin.
- SEJeff 8y agoThe carotid is right under the skin on the sides of the neck. Academically, I suspect you absolutely could reach it with a push pin. In Jiu Jitsu, you're taught to squeeze on the sides of the neck for a choke. The goal is not to cut off the air supply via the throat so much as the blood supply to the brain via the carotids. Many people pass out in 20-30 seconds of directed relatively gentle pressure on the carotids.
- tonyarkles 8y agoWe were recently talking about choke holds in Krav Maga, and it’s shockingly fast when the sides of the neck are squeezed. Within about 5 seconds, for me, I start to get tunnel vision and a profound sense of panic.
- dx87 8y agoThat's how they taught us to choke people during basic training in the USMC, and collectively referred to the chokes as "blood chokes" because you cut off blood supply to the brain. It's suprisingly easy to choke someone unconcious just by twisting the sides of their shirt collar, or grabbing someone from behind and squeezing the arteries on their neck with your forearm and bicep. The scariest part about doing it during training is that you don't know that you're about to blackout because you can still breath fine, it's just that none of the oxygen is getting to your brain.
- INTPenis 8y agoYou don't have to go that far back. My grandma carried a knife to church. She was from rural Croatia. My father still carries a knife, and he still uses it for eating fruit.
- ahoka 8y agoI carry an Opinel in my pocket for eating in the office kitchenette or even in public places.
- gadders 8y agoGood job you're not in the UK (I assume) - you'd get arrested for that. Locking knives are illegal in public [1] [1] https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives
- iguy 8y agoFrom that link, it's unclear to me whether an Opinel would be illegal: it locks in place, but not with a button. Anyone know? > Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason. Lock knives: * have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button * can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener
- rtkwe 8y agoOdds are the actual laws don't make mention of button, most multi-tools with locking blades use non button locks, and the list is just an example.
- DanBC 8y agoThe law is the Criminal Justice Act 1988. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/contents https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/contents The knife stuff starts here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/part/XI/crossheading/articles-with-blades-or-points-and-offensive-weapons https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/33/part/XI/crosshe... That talks about the blade folding and being under 3 inches (you don't need a good reason to carry it in public), or the blade folding and being over 3 inches or not folding. It doesn't mention the mechanism of locking. Knives that are illegal would be covered by section 141 - "offensive weapons". The Knives Act 1997 covers marketing of knives: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/21/contents https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/21/contents The schedule to the Criminal Justice Act lists what weapons are currently illegal: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019/schedule/paragraph/1/made https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019/schedule/parag... You'll see item 1 is a knuckleduster. If you're a child and you 3d print a knuckle duster a police officer is likely to tell you to stop fucking about and they'll confiscate and destroy the item. If you're a drug dealer with a history of violent offences they're likely to prosecute. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45275791 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45275791 This is a cultural difference in law enforcement, and it's something that derails conversations all the time on HN. Discretion in charging and prosecuting offences are seen as a good thing in the UK. But it's really important to remember this element of discretion when talking about how the written law is applied.
- samstave 8y agoA personal eating knife seems like the perfect accessory to my utilikilt! --- Also when did atlasobscura become the new hotness?
- TeMPOraL 8y ago> Also when did atlasobscura become the new hotness? Links to it pop up regularly on HN, and have been for some time. Usually there's something interesting on both ends.
- samstave 8y agoIm not saying that they are not interesting -- Its just seemingly that they have only relatively recently become super popular...
- thrower123 8y agoMy redneck is showing, but I feel a little naked if I go out the door without either my Leatherman or my Mercator in my pocket. I have even been known to pull it out and use it as an eating knife from time to time...
- grawprog 8y agoYa pretty much this. Though i prefer my Buck knife myself. I've been carrying a knife almost constantly since my dad gave my first pocket knife as a kid. I can't even begin to count the number of times it's come in handy. I've used it for eating more than once for sure. I've even used it to trim my nails.
- Steltek 8y agoHowdy redneck, this New England yankee carries a Leatherman (Skeletool CX) everywhere. Do you think we can find us a midwest farm boy in here? I've also used for food in a pinch (mostly cutting things up to share with others). I see a lot of people carry pure folding knives (Spyder, etc). Honestly I use the screwdriver, etc at least as much as the blade. Not sure why anyone would forego a little extra utility.
- spaceprison 8y agoMidwesterner checking in, always have my "old timer" in my back pocket.
- scarecrowbob 8y agoI'm neither redneck nor yankee, but texas from texas. FWIW, I really like my multitool... but the reason why I carry just a folding knife is that the multitool is quite heavy by my standards, compared to the small oldtimer that I used to carry or the single blade ones that I've owned.
- gothroach 8y agoCalifornian here, I always have a knife on me and find myself using it daily. Currently, I'm carrying an older CRKT Mt. Rainier.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Theodores 8y agoThe first person to paint true to life peasants was Pieter Bruegel. Until the renaissance people painted for kings, queens and the church. Bruegel is therefore an excellent source for being able to determine if this story is true. If you look at his paintings then only the men are carrying knives. None of the women are. Why is this and can someone prove me wrong? I am not that familiar with his work and have not checked everything he painted yet I have not seen women with knives in his art.
- stcredzero 8y agoI should think a peasant woman of the time would wear a knife concealed beneath her skirts.
- Theodores 8y agoNope. I had to ask my favourite search engine since my observation on the topic was not deemed that relevant here. Surprisingly simple answer: "At many medieval dinner tables men and women ate in couples from a bowl shared between them, and when they did, men were expected courteously to serve their female partners, cutting portions of meat for them with their knives." So that explains my observation of the paintings from the era that only show the men with knives.
- schnevets 8y agoI believe Henry Petroski's Evolution of Everyday Things begins by describing Western eating utensils. It also goes into similar stories about sandpaper, paperclips, and other everyday items. Great read if you enjoyed this article.
- btilly 8y agoI rather think that causation goes the other way. If you enjoy that, then you'll enjoy this article. However I enjoyed this article but still rate that book as the most boring book that I've ever managed to finish.
- newnewpdro 8y agoI find myself using the chop sticks kept in my backpack far more often at restaurants than the pocket knife.
- vorpalhex 8y agochopsticks are useful too, especially when you can't easily wash your hands and want to eat something a bit messy, but they only work for food well cut up in advance...
- newnewpdro 8y agoIn cases where food isn't cut up, I'll often use both the chop sticks and pocket knife. Once my chop sticks competency reached the point where they started feeling like finger extenders I started using them quite often. I much prefer putting bamboo sticks in my mouth over anything metal or plastic.
- contingencies 8y agoYeah, same with me. What's your feeling about plastic chopsticks and metal chopsticks (Korean style)? I've seen telescoping extending chopsticks made of metal for camping, always wondered if they were any good. I suspect not. I personally camp with wooden, non-bamboo chopsticks.
- newnewpdro 8y agoAny kind of wood over all else. If a restaurant brings out metal chopsticks with my food, the wood ones from my bag come out. Telescoping metal chopsticks sounds like a solution looking for a problem personally. It's not like bamboo disposable chopsticks weigh much, just stick them somewhere.
- contingencies 8y agoMe too. I guess telescoping means you can reduce the length of the rigid portion to keep them in smaller spaces, like on your belt or something. There's a whole culture of that around Hong Kong, for example. Everything must clip to belt - otherwise, not cool. I only half joke.
- mcantelon 8y agoThe knife is considered the most important tool of all time... perhaps not to eat with, but handy in general: https://www.forbes.com/2005/08/31/technology-tools-knife_cx_de_0831knife.html#4af9ae6516ee https://www.forbes.com/2005/08/31/technology-tools-knife_cx_... Socialization seems to be turning knives into taboo things to carry and use out of the kitchen.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoKnives, much like fire, are both hugely important, but they have their places. Bringing either onto a flight seems unneeded.
- canhascodez 8y agoKnives are generally useful, but not specifically useful. They are often a good substitute for a more appropriate tool. One can use a knife as a can opener, or to cut down a sapling, or to dig a foreign object out of a wound. It may be that a knife is the most generally useful tool of all time: if one can only have one tool, it should almost certainly be a knife. Part of that generality includes misuse, and people tend to have more specifically-useful tools (such as can openers, saws, and surgical implements), which tend to be both less useful and less misuseful (because that's a perfectly cromulent word, no matter what spellcheck says).
- ur-whale 8y agoMost recently used mine to pull out a credit card from an ATM that wouldn't regurgitate it. Got a bunch of odd looks from folks in the crowd around me, but got my card back.
- ken 8y agoA knife is a tool (the tool) which focuses human force, at a point and/or along an edge. That's about as generic as a tool can be.
- Bayart 8y agoIn Medieval Europe ? My grand-father (who had been working an office job in the city since the 50's) always had his Laguiole along. He even used it in the restaurant. It was certainly standard behavior before WWII in rural areas.
- jetrink 8y agoGeorge Orwell mentioned the practice in a letter in 1936. > The trouble is that the socialist bourgeoisie, most of whom give me the creeps, will not be realistic and admit that there are a lot of working-class habits which they don't like and don't want to adopt. E.g. the typical middle-class socialist not only doesn't eat with his knife but is still slightly horrified by seeing a working man do so.
- rv-de 8y agoI was just wondering how having only a knife helps with eating. The knife will just make the food bite-sized - though, how do you fixate the meal while cutting? Then it struck me - you'll use your other hand for that and also for moving the piece to your mouth. I'd argue this is the actual problem with this BYO-knife-mentality.
- rags2riches 8y agoIf you hold your knife in the right hand you hold the food item in your left. You then cut towards your right thumb, pinching the piece between your thumb and the knife as it comes loose. You can then bring the piece to your mouth with your right hand. As you do this, you turn hand such that the edge of the knife is downwards and the back of the knife is towards your face. The knife is horizontal and the point of the knife is towards your left. That's hard to put in words but it's not hard to do at all.
- rv-de 8y agothat's more or less what I wrote. but in many cultures touching food with your bare hands for the purpose of eating is considered barbaric. that's why I suspect that the problem isn't the knife - it's having to use your fingers.
- qualsiasi 8y agoIn my country (Italy) AFAIK you're not allowed to carry a knife (any size, even the smallest) in any public place (pub, restaurant, post office, ..). Even on the streets or driving the law enforcement officers could ask you for a sound motivation to carry it.
- ilovecaching 8y agoMan I would love to go back to everyone carrying a belt knife. They're so useful. In my state in America it's actually illegal to conceal a fixed blade knife longer than a few inches, but perfectly fine to belt carry (open carry). I often carry a swiss army knife, opinel, or bushcraft knife with me.
- TheAlchemist 8y agoI highly recommend the book mentionned in the article - 'Consider the Fork', for those interested in cooking. A great book with many interesting topics (the personnal knife is just one of them) !
- DoreenMichele 8y agoDuring the Middle Ages, forks weren’t really part of the picture in Europe. Supposedly, Catherine de Medici brought the fork from Italy to France and popularized it: https://www.cooksinfo.com/catherine-de-medici https://www.cooksinfo.com/catherine-de-medici http://www.courtneyprice.com/fork-you-said-catherine-de-medici/ http://www.courtneyprice.com/fork-you-said-catherine-de-medi... https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/when-was-the-fork-invented https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/when-was-the-fork-invented