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The fact that Muslims aren't as integrated into European society as they should be is 99% the fault of Europeans. Basic stuff like labor market access is crucia

The fact that Muslims aren't as integrated into European society as they should be is 99% the fault of Europeans. Basic stuff like labor market access is crucial for integration.

malmsteen 8y ago
Also their "desire for education" could play a role somehow. In french migrants suburbs the scools are battlefield because the parents dont teach them basic discipline.
- FiveSquared 8y ago
  Well ghetto school always have that because they get less funding and their is less teacher and more work for teachers (who are already exhausted)! Plus lead and PTSD!
tomp 8y ago
I agree that's a problem, but to fault Europeans is about as stupid as faulting Muslims for not figuring out how to make new jobs. Even the "worst" immigrants into the US (Mexicans) can find (shitty) jobs (the "best" immigrants - Asians - are a success story in all categories so they're usually ignored in these discussions). But the obvious solutions to this problem, regardless of who's fault it is, is to not import people if you can't offer them jobs/health/education/language courses.
- FiveSquared 8y ago
  Then offer them the courses then! The EU and the US already do this! And besides, what is the benefit of keeping out potential businesspeople(Sergi was a immigrant and Andy Grove was a refugee), doctors, programmers, and more while birth rates and education stagnate?
  - tomp 8y ago
    We do! But resources aren't infinite, so there must be limits.
- inscionent 8y ago
  We could afford all of these things, but for inefficiencies in the system. Calling human individuals with similar heritages by monikers of worst and best is a gross overgeneralization. The obvious solution is, there isn't one.
  - tomp 8y ago
    > gross overgeneralization Yeah I know that's why I put it in quotes. But that's how they're commonly perceived in media and academic institutions.
    - inscionent 8y ago
      How is that a justification for reiterating the falsehood that one nationality is inherently inferior to others? I prefer to not use hateful rhetoric even if the "media" does it.
  - abakker 8y ago
    I suppose it is possible that many people find a system with some inefficiency to be practically nicer, easier, and more functional than one with absolutely perfect utilization, allocation, and efficiency. efficiency in a systems problem is almost never easy, and it requires everyone who participates to put forth their fullest effort. It is telling to me that when people are unconstrained by space/cost/time, they don't tend to create extremely efficient situations, but in fact prefer those that intentionally less so.
    - inscionent 8y ago
      Individuals with power absolutely prefer an inefficient system. Arbitrage and gatekeeping ensure their power in the future.
- damnyou 8y ago
  That happens because the US provides people that come here for humanitarian reasons work permits. Europe does not.
fromthestart 8y ago
>The fact that Muslims aren't as integrated into European society as they should be is 99% the fault of Europeans. You're blaming Europeans for not forcing their culture onto immigrants. You're also making the naive assumption that a sizable proportion of immigrants WANTS to assimilate - the truth is that certain groups are simply not interested in assimilating. Why would they be? Foreign customs are hard to learn and - here's the part many proponents of immigration conveniently miss - directly opposed to Western customs. When you are raised to believe that women are property, for example, and that your customs and culture are biblically justified, and some white idiot welcomes you into his country, provides you with free (to you) government assistance, while you live comfortably in your homogeneous ghetto, don't be surprised if you get laughed it at best, taken advantage of at worst. And when one side not only denies that any of this is happening, but worse, slanders their countrymen as "xenophobes" for not wanting to accommodate the culture of their home and Homeland for that of ungrateful immigrants, populism suddenly has a very strong appeal. In the U.S., for example, immigrants vote Democrat. You have millions of people who have called the U.S. their home for generations, and now you have a large group of people flowing into your communities and imposing their cultural values onto you via government. This is not xenophobia - people have a right to preserve their peaceful ways of life - otherwise you are arguing that one culture is superior to another.
- nouseforaname 8y ago
  > You have millions of people who have called the U.S. their home for generations, and now you have a large group of people flowing into your communities and imposing their cultural values onto you via government. I assume you must be talking about native americans and the large influx of white people who won't assimilate to their local Ute or Navajo or whatever culture. Because literally any other interpretation I have of this comment is less charitable because it would imply you have a staggering level of hypocrisy.
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    What happened to the Native Americans happened more than a century ago. And, case in point, how well did it work out for them? We live here now. Our families, our friends, our communities. We have every right to self preservation that they did-there is nothing hypocritical here. The comparison is disingeneous. Ignoring the fact that most natives were wiped out by disease, European arrival in the U.S. was a clash of totally independent groups. There was no forced integration and little intermingling of communities-this was warfare, not simple immigration. It wasn't right (through the lens of our Western culture) to uproot natives who had built their lives here, but that doesn't justify doing the same to generations who've similarly replaced them. In any case, land is finite, all current peoples have displaced others at some point. That doesn't mean their communities and countries suddenly have no right to cultural self preservation.
damnyou 8y ago
Ah, I had no idea HN had becoke xenophobia central.

The fact that Muslims aren't as integrated into European society as they should be is 99% the fault of Europeans. Basic stuff like labor market access is crucial for integration.

malmsteen 8y ago

Also their "desire for education" could play a role somehow. In french migrants suburbs the scools are battlefield because the parents dont teach them basic discipline.

FiveSquared 8y ago
Well ghetto school always have that because they get less funding and their is less teacher and more work for teachers (who are already exhausted)! Plus lead and PTSD!

tomp 8y ago

I agree that's a problem, but to fault Europeans is about as stupid as faulting Muslims for not figuring out how to make new jobs. Even the "worst" immigrants into the US (Mexicans) can find (shitty) jobs (the "best" immigrants - Asians - are a success story in all categories so they're usually ignored in these discussions). But the obvious solutions to this problem, regardless of who's fault it is, is to not import people if you can't offer them jobs/health/education/language courses.

FiveSquared 8y ago
Then offer them the courses then! The EU and the US already do this! And besides, what is the benefit of keeping out potential businesspeople(Sergi was a immigrant and Andy Grove was a refugee), doctors, programmers, and more while birth rates and education stagnate?
- tomp 8y ago
  We do! But resources aren't infinite, so there must be limits.
inscionent 8y ago
We could afford all of these things, but for inefficiencies in the system. Calling human individuals with similar heritages by monikers of worst and best is a gross overgeneralization. The obvious solution is, there isn't one.
- tomp 8y ago
  > gross overgeneralization Yeah I know that's why I put it in quotes. But that's how they're commonly perceived in media and academic institutions.
  - inscionent 8y ago
    How is that a justification for reiterating the falsehood that one nationality is inherently inferior to others? I prefer to not use hateful rhetoric even if the "media" does it.
- abakker 8y ago
  I suppose it is possible that many people find a system with some inefficiency to be practically nicer, easier, and more functional than one with absolutely perfect utilization, allocation, and efficiency. efficiency in a systems problem is almost never easy, and it requires everyone who participates to put forth their fullest effort. It is telling to me that when people are unconstrained by space/cost/time, they don't tend to create extremely efficient situations, but in fact prefer those that intentionally less so.
  - inscionent 8y ago
    Individuals with power absolutely prefer an inefficient system. Arbitrage and gatekeeping ensure their power in the future.
damnyou 8y ago
That happens because the US provides people that come here for humanitarian reasons work permits. Europe does not.

fromthestart 8y ago

>The fact that Muslims aren't as integrated into European society as they should be is 99% the fault of Europeans. You're blaming Europeans for not forcing their culture onto immigrants. You're also making the naive assumption that a sizable proportion of immigrants WANTS to assimilate - the truth is that certain groups are simply not interested in assimilating. Why would they be? Foreign customs are hard to learn and - here's the part many proponents of immigration conveniently miss - directly opposed to Western customs. When you are raised to believe that women are property, for example, and that your customs and culture are biblically justified, and some white idiot welcomes you into his country, provides you with free (to you) government assistance, while you live comfortably in your homogeneous ghetto, don't be surprised if you get laughed it at best, taken advantage of at worst. And when one side not only denies that any of this is happening, but worse, slanders their countrymen as "xenophobes" for not wanting to accommodate the culture of their home and Homeland for that of ungrateful immigrants, populism suddenly has a very strong appeal. In the U.S., for example, immigrants vote Democrat. You have millions of people who have called the U.S. their home for generations, and now you have a large group of people flowing into your communities and imposing their cultural values onto you via government. This is not xenophobia - people have a right to preserve their peaceful ways of life - otherwise you are arguing that one culture is superior to another.

nouseforaname 8y ago
> You have millions of people who have called the U.S. their home for generations, and now you have a large group of people flowing into your communities and imposing their cultural values onto you via government. I assume you must be talking about native americans and the large influx of white people who won't assimilate to their local Ute or Navajo or whatever culture. Because literally any other interpretation I have of this comment is less charitable because it would imply you have a staggering level of hypocrisy.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  What happened to the Native Americans happened more than a century ago. And, case in point, how well did it work out for them? We live here now. Our families, our friends, our communities. We have every right to self preservation that they did-there is nothing hypocritical here. The comparison is disingeneous. Ignoring the fact that most natives were wiped out by disease, European arrival in the U.S. was a clash of totally independent groups. There was no forced integration and little intermingling of communities-this was warfare, not simple immigration. It wasn't right (through the lens of our Western culture) to uproot natives who had built their lives here, but that doesn't justify doing the same to generations who've similarly replaced them. In any case, land is finite, all current peoples have displaced others at some point. That doesn't mean their communities and countries suddenly have no right to cultural self preservation.

damnyou 8y ago

Ah, I had no idea HN had becoke xenophobia central.