5 ms·

>"If you're going to invest $20, $40, $60 in a tarot reading and you find it's irrelevant to you, or did you no good, why would that being any different than go

>"If you're going to invest $20, $40, $60 in a tarot reading and you find it's irrelevant to you, or did you no good, why would that being any different than going to a reiki treatment and finding that didn't work?" she asked. "Would you charge a reiki practitioner with fraud?" She makes an excellent point, but not the one she intended.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Agreed. But if you go to a tarot reading for purposes of entertainment (without deceptive promises from the practitioner), or to get general life advice and a supportive ear, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  The difference is that the false pretense of the engagement breeds the abusive behavior that is common in these sorts of engagements. The "magic" is just a veneer over the grift, and the entertainment aspect is a start of the sales funnel. That's why legitimate therapists, etc have professional associations and standards of ethics.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    For the practitioners where you're right, there are plenty of other laws to go after them with. No need for one specific to scams disguised as magic. For the non-scammy entertainers, no need for a law whether it's real magic of pretend magic.
- kingkawn 8y ago
  Tarot reading is discussion of ones life with the aid of a random number generator (the shuffled deck) to overcome preexisting maladaptive interpretations and cultural assumptions.
meowface 8y ago
It is a slippery slope, though. Do we need to prosecute all manufacturers of homeopathic medicine and all doctors who recommend it for fraud? All psychics, mediums, etc.? Does this extend to religious healers? Similar to reiki, what about people who claim acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments or crystal healing can treat serious diseases? What about doctors who recommend Eastern medicine practices like consuming certain organs of certain animals to treat issues? It is all fraud, but if we're going to be charging all people like that with fraud, then freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent. Many of these fraudsters genuinely believe what they're doing is legitimate and isn't fraud. Many of the clients genuinely believe it's legitimate due to their belief systems. An argument could be made that people should be allowed to spend their money as they choose and that the government should not be in the business of deciding if they're spending their money wisely. Gambling is another example.
- adrianN 8y ago
  It strongly depends on the ways these things are advertised. If I market homeopathic medicine as "some of our customers report that it helped them, but scientific consensus is that these pills are indistinguishable from sugar" that's very different from claiming effective treatments.
- pjc50 8y ago
  The UK restricts advertising of medicine quite dramatically (you're not allowed to advertise prescription-only drugs), and has a specific ban on falsely advertising the ability to cure cancer. > freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent Fortunately not everyone thinks that freedom of speech extends to freedom to defraud the vulnerable.
  - meowface 8y ago
    True, but many of the aforementioned fraudsters are careful to dodge around those laws and not make extravagant claims of effectiveness. They won't advertise that something can cure cancer. But during private 1-on-1 treatment sessions, they could imply otherwise.
- 8y ago
Raphmedia 8y ago
Tarot is one of my hobbies. When done properly and with responsibility, it does not claim any accuracy when it comes to telling the future. It's a tool that you use to have deep and meaningful conversations. The cards are loosely similar to Jung's archetypes, among other things. Modern tarot is an anachronistic melting pot of many philosophies and concepts. You simply use the cards to investigate a situation. You may discover someone's fears or hopes through one of those conversations. You can then use this information to help them plan out their future. That's pretty much it. --- For example: Say someone asks you about their career and you pick a card that means "shyness" at some point. The conversation then focus on the concept of being shy. Is this person shy? Could their shyness be the thing that make their work life harder? If the answer is no, do they have someone at work that may be shy? You then talk about that. If the answer is still no, could it be that they should be more shy? Is this person too bold? You ask this and the person gets defensive about themselves. A good reader will be able to notice this and then shift the conversation on that. Through this discussion, they tell you that they might be too brash about one of their employees. You can then help them figure out a plan for the future, a plan to apologize or simply be more emphatic about that employee. But this person come up with the plan by themselves. You simply facilitated this discovery. --- In short, it's a tool that get people to open up to you. Some people abuse of this. They give dates, prophecies, claim truths. They pick up on the points where the person they read for gets defensive and then use this information to emotionally blackmail them. A good tarot reader is a good listener. You should not make any claim, you are not a trained therapist. Tarot readers should allow people to discover themselves without forcing anything. They should never say "you are x and need to do y before z happens". (This is going to be controversial on HN. Keep an open mind and be polite. I am not a professional tarot reader and decline reading for people most of the time because of the liabilities that come with it.)

jkaplowitz 8y ago

Agreed. But if you go to a tarot reading for purposes of entertainment (without deceptive promises from the practitioner), or to get general life advice and a supportive ear, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Spooky23 8y ago
The difference is that the false pretense of the engagement breeds the abusive behavior that is common in these sorts of engagements. The "magic" is just a veneer over the grift, and the entertainment aspect is a start of the sales funnel. That's why legitimate therapists, etc have professional associations and standards of ethics.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  For the practitioners where you're right, there are plenty of other laws to go after them with. No need for one specific to scams disguised as magic. For the non-scammy entertainers, no need for a law whether it's real magic of pretend magic.
kingkawn 8y ago
Tarot reading is discussion of ones life with the aid of a random number generator (the shuffled deck) to overcome preexisting maladaptive interpretations and cultural assumptions.

meowface 8y ago

It is a slippery slope, though. Do we need to prosecute all manufacturers of homeopathic medicine and all doctors who recommend it for fraud? All psychics, mediums, etc.? Does this extend to religious healers? Similar to reiki, what about people who claim acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments or crystal healing can treat serious diseases? What about doctors who recommend Eastern medicine practices like consuming certain organs of certain animals to treat issues? It is all fraud, but if we're going to be charging all people like that with fraud, then freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent. Many of these fraudsters genuinely believe what they're doing is legitimate and isn't fraud. Many of the clients genuinely believe it's legitimate due to their belief systems. An argument could be made that people should be allowed to spend their money as they choose and that the government should not be in the business of deciding if they're spending their money wisely. Gambling is another example.

adrianN 8y ago
It strongly depends on the ways these things are advertised. If I market homeopathic medicine as "some of our customers report that it helped them, but scientific consensus is that these pills are indistinguishable from sugar" that's very different from claiming effective treatments.
pjc50 8y ago
The UK restricts advertising of medicine quite dramatically (you're not allowed to advertise prescription-only drugs), and has a specific ban on falsely advertising the ability to cure cancer. > freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent Fortunately not everyone thinks that freedom of speech extends to freedom to defraud the vulnerable.
- meowface 8y ago
  True, but many of the aforementioned fraudsters are careful to dodge around those laws and not make extravagant claims of effectiveness. They won't advertise that something can cure cancer. But during private 1-on-1 treatment sessions, they could imply otherwise.
8y ago

Raphmedia 8y ago

Tarot is one of my hobbies. When done properly and with responsibility, it does not claim any accuracy when it comes to telling the future. It's a tool that you use to have deep and meaningful conversations. The cards are loosely similar to Jung's archetypes, among other things. Modern tarot is an anachronistic melting pot of many philosophies and concepts. You simply use the cards to investigate a situation. You may discover someone's fears or hopes through one of those conversations. You can then use this information to help them plan out their future. That's pretty much it. --- For example: Say someone asks you about their career and you pick a card that means "shyness" at some point. The conversation then focus on the concept of being shy. Is this person shy? Could their shyness be the thing that make their work life harder? If the answer is no, do they have someone at work that may be shy? You then talk about that. If the answer is still no, could it be that they should be more shy? Is this person too bold? You ask this and the person gets defensive about themselves. A good reader will be able to notice this and then shift the conversation on that. Through this discussion, they tell you that they might be too brash about one of their employees. You can then help them figure out a plan for the future, a plan to apologize or simply be more emphatic about that employee. But this person come up with the plan by themselves. You simply facilitated this discovery. --- In short, it's a tool that get people to open up to you. Some people abuse of this. They give dates, prophecies, claim truths. They pick up on the points where the person they read for gets defensive and then use this information to emotionally blackmail them. A good tarot reader is a good listener. You should not make any claim, you are not a trained therapist. Tarot readers should allow people to discover themselves without forcing anything. They should never say "you are x and need to do y before z happens". (This is going to be controversial on HN. Keep an open mind and be polite. I am not a professional tarot reader and decline reading for people most of the time because of the liabilities that come with it.)