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But we also evolved to have a large cerebral cortex that allows us to make decisions that go against certain impulses because we are able to see the bigger pict

by ab71e5 8y ago

But we also evolved to have a large cerebral cortex that allows us to make decisions that go against certain impulses because we are able to see the bigger picture. We evolved to conserve energy when possible but we exercise anyway because we know that if we don`t it will be detrimental to our health. And many people are still healthy while on a vegetarian diet so it is possible.

village-idiot 8y ago
What a silly assertion. You can ignore evolutionary impulses with your brain when said impulses come from your brain. Your brain can’t override how your metabolism and gut work. Your brain can’t change the bacteria in your gut, or the shape of your teeth. Omnivorism is not an impulse, it’s an attribute of the species. It’s part of who we are.
- DennisP 8y ago
  I'm not a vegan, but my brother has been a strict vegan for a decade and is quite healthy. Plenty of other people do the same with similar results, including some professional athletes, so clearly it's possible. I just don't think most people can be persuaded to do it.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    You’re ignoring what I’m saying. I also don’t believe that vegans are healthy. Sure, they don’t starve (omnivores, after all). But I want to see their regular glucose levels and their mortality rates. The way I eat (omnivore) is ancient, veganism is brand new.
    - simoom22 8y ago
      Humans are primates, and most primates of the world are vegan, or nearly so, including our closest relatives. That's not something new.
      - village-idiot 8y ago
        Our two closest primate relatives are not vegan, they’re omnivores. Bonobos and chimpanzees hunt smaller mammals.
        gnosis89 8y ago
        Most of their diet is fruit/leaves. The rest is squirrels. I don't see many people eating squirrels, but I see a lot of squirrels.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        village-idiot 8y ago
        Spend more times in the sticks. I’ve heard that squirrel is delicious.
    - DennisP 8y ago
      I'm not ignoring, I'm disagreeing. My brother is a military officer, gets an annual physical, and his numbers are consistently great. A quick google finds studies supporting the idea that his results are typical. Here's one from 2016, which finds that more plant protein correlates with lower mortality, and more animal protein with higher mortality: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... But as I said above, from an environmental perspective I don't think widespread vegetarianism is a feasible policy goal, so I'm not trying to tell you what to eat. Getting our meat from vats instead of animals is what I think will save the world.
      - village-idiot 8y ago
        Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_user_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_user_bias There are some studies that are coming out that undermine your idea that vegans are inherently healthier, such as the notice that vegetarians appear to have higher rates of cavities than the population at large. If you ask an anthropologist you'll know this is a big deal, because dental health is a great indicator of overall health. I think all the arguments about the vegetarianism saving the world are bunk, and a convenient reason for us all to not talk about the real issue: oil. My meat comes from animals that graze on grass, as has been the case for millenia. The millions of buffalo that ran around north America a few centuries ago didn't warm the planet with their farts, so why should properly managed grass fed cows do the same? On the other hand, what is new is large scale industrial monoculture agriculture. I am dubious to the concept that we can transition the world over to plant based without planting a lot of soy, something that I think is bad. Side note: we have been managing cattle poorly for years. The proper way is to pen them into relatively tight (but not cramped) portions of the grazing land, and then rotate them from section to section regularly. This mimics the way that herding animals react to predators (cluster up), and gives the grasses time to recover and sequester carbon. It's also far more land efficient than other methods, which is nice. Edit: it looks like 84% of world wide calories come from plants already. Doesn’t seem to be doing anything to stop global warming to me. Maybe it’s the fact that we’re still using fossil fuels instead?
  - taneq 8y ago
    It's possible to move around exclusively by hopping on one leg. Doesn't mean it's the best way to live your life.
    - ab71e5 8y ago
      But hopping around on one leg is obviously less efficient, slower and maybe even unhealthy for your joints etc. Is a vegetarian diet less efficient or healthy? It is limiting your choices in restaurants obviously, but suppose you live in some vegetarian community. Is this community limiting its potential? While if you live in a community that exclusively hops around on one leg, the answer is obviously yes, for the first example I'm not sure.
      - taneq 8y ago
        A vegetarian diet often has significantly less protein (important if you're trying to build or maintain muscle mass) and less of some trace nutrients (zinc, iron, vitamin B12) than a diet including meat. It's possible to make up the differences and there are health benefits if you do, but it's definitely more work.
- ab71e5 8y ago
  We evolved to adapt to our environment and we are not some kind of 'final form' that we are stuck with forever, we are still evolving. And people are able to extract nutrients from plants just fine. Also the two incisors do not have to determine anyone's diet. Now if you don't want to be be a vegetarian fine but don't tell me it's impossible because that's just not true.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    > We evolved to adapt to our environment and we are not some kind of 'final form' that we are stuck with forever, we are still evolving. As a species we are evolving, as an individual you are not. You can argue that humans might become herbivores in the next few 10,000 years, but don't expect to see it in your lifetime. I also would argue that the individuals who are trying to consciously work against where we've evolved from will face some negative effects, even if their intentions are good. > the two incisors do not have to determine anyone's diet. We actually have 4 incisors and 4 canines, for a total of 25% of our teeth. In general teeth are a good indication of what a species eats, since the teeth and the rest of the organism evolved together. Teeth are also a fantastic indicator of the health of the individual, anthropologists use the rate of cavities to tell how healthy the individual and society was. Coincidentally, vegetarians have a higher rate of cavities than the population at large. > Now if you don't want to be be a vegetarian fine but don't tell me it's impossible because that's just not true. I would kindly appreciate you not making up what I'm arguing and putting words into my mouth. I'm not saying humans are obligate carnivores, I'm saying they're omnivores. That means that we can survive off plants, I just think it's a bad idea.
    - gnosis89 8y ago
      Individuals can and do evolve, and then they pass that on to their children, that's how evolution works. Biological evolution is a very long and slow process, technological evolution is not. That's why our teeth are a poor indication of what we should be eating because of this revolutionary thing called cooking. Our teeth are records of our past evolution, not rules for our future or current evolution. The claim that vegetarians have higher rates of cavities is total bullshit. They actually have better dental hygiene.
taneq 8y ago
Speaking as a life-long vegetarian here, I don't think most people are naturally suited to it. I don't eat meat because I don't want to. I know I'd hate to live my life wanting, say, cheese, or spinach, or whatever, and denying it to myself because of some imagined higher good. I feel like people should embrace their nature. Mine doesn't happen to include eating meat. Most peoples' does, and that's OK.
- ab71e5 8y ago
  So then it's a nature/nurture kind of discussion. Do you think some people are genetically unable to stop eating meat? Personally, I think your tastes will adapt, i.e. it wouldn't feel like denying yourself anything after a while. But maybe it's different for some people. Also commercials and just society around you influences your cravings. I think if you would grow up somewhere where there is no dairy for example, you would not crave it.
  - taneq 8y ago
    I don't think they're genetically unable to stop, but I think they're genetically predisposed to prefer eating meat if it's an option. I've gone without dairy for a couple of months here and there (while traveling in Asia where it's much less of a thing than at home) and definitely still missed it by the time I got home.

by ab71e5 8y ago

village-idiot 8y ago

What a silly assertion. You can ignore evolutionary impulses with your brain when said impulses come from your brain. Your brain can’t override how your metabolism and gut work. Your brain can’t change the bacteria in your gut, or the shape of your teeth. Omnivorism is not an impulse, it’s an attribute of the species. It’s part of who we are.

DennisP 8y ago
I'm not a vegan, but my brother has been a strict vegan for a decade and is quite healthy. Plenty of other people do the same with similar results, including some professional athletes, so clearly it's possible. I just don't think most people can be persuaded to do it.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  You’re ignoring what I’m saying. I also don’t believe that vegans are healthy. Sure, they don’t starve (omnivores, after all). But I want to see their regular glucose levels and their mortality rates. The way I eat (omnivore) is ancient, veganism is brand new.
  - simoom22 8y ago
    Humans are primates, and most primates of the world are vegan, or nearly so, including our closest relatives. That's not something new.
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      Our two closest primate relatives are not vegan, they’re omnivores. Bonobos and chimpanzees hunt smaller mammals.
      - gnosis89 8y ago
        Most of their diet is fruit/leaves. The rest is squirrels. I don't see many people eating squirrels, but I see a lot of squirrels.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        village-idiot 8y ago
        Spend more times in the sticks. I’ve heard that squirrel is delicious.
  - DennisP 8y ago
    I'm not ignoring, I'm disagreeing. My brother is a military officer, gets an annual physical, and his numbers are consistently great. A quick google finds studies supporting the idea that his results are typical. Here's one from 2016, which finds that more plant protein correlates with lower mortality, and more animal protein with higher mortality: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families... But as I said above, from an environmental perspective I don't think widespread vegetarianism is a feasible policy goal, so I'm not trying to tell you what to eat. Getting our meat from vats instead of animals is what I think will save the world.
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_user_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_user_bias There are some studies that are coming out that undermine your idea that vegans are inherently healthier, such as the notice that vegetarians appear to have higher rates of cavities than the population at large. If you ask an anthropologist you'll know this is a big deal, because dental health is a great indicator of overall health. I think all the arguments about the vegetarianism saving the world are bunk, and a convenient reason for us all to not talk about the real issue: oil. My meat comes from animals that graze on grass, as has been the case for millenia. The millions of buffalo that ran around north America a few centuries ago didn't warm the planet with their farts, so why should properly managed grass fed cows do the same? On the other hand, what is new is large scale industrial monoculture agriculture. I am dubious to the concept that we can transition the world over to plant based without planting a lot of soy, something that I think is bad. Side note: we have been managing cattle poorly for years. The proper way is to pen them into relatively tight (but not cramped) portions of the grazing land, and then rotate them from section to section regularly. This mimics the way that herding animals react to predators (cluster up), and gives the grasses time to recover and sequester carbon. It's also far more land efficient than other methods, which is nice. Edit: it looks like 84% of world wide calories come from plants already. Doesn’t seem to be doing anything to stop global warming to me. Maybe it’s the fact that we’re still using fossil fuels instead?
- taneq 8y ago
  It's possible to move around exclusively by hopping on one leg. Doesn't mean it's the best way to live your life.
  - ab71e5 8y ago
    But hopping around on one leg is obviously less efficient, slower and maybe even unhealthy for your joints etc. Is a vegetarian diet less efficient or healthy? It is limiting your choices in restaurants obviously, but suppose you live in some vegetarian community. Is this community limiting its potential? While if you live in a community that exclusively hops around on one leg, the answer is obviously yes, for the first example I'm not sure.
    - taneq 8y ago
      A vegetarian diet often has significantly less protein (important if you're trying to build or maintain muscle mass) and less of some trace nutrients (zinc, iron, vitamin B12) than a diet including meat. It's possible to make up the differences and there are health benefits if you do, but it's definitely more work.
ab71e5 8y ago
We evolved to adapt to our environment and we are not some kind of 'final form' that we are stuck with forever, we are still evolving. And people are able to extract nutrients from plants just fine. Also the two incisors do not have to determine anyone's diet. Now if you don't want to be be a vegetarian fine but don't tell me it's impossible because that's just not true.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  > We evolved to adapt to our environment and we are not some kind of 'final form' that we are stuck with forever, we are still evolving. As a species we are evolving, as an individual you are not. You can argue that humans might become herbivores in the next few 10,000 years, but don't expect to see it in your lifetime. I also would argue that the individuals who are trying to consciously work against where we've evolved from will face some negative effects, even if their intentions are good. > the two incisors do not have to determine anyone's diet. We actually have 4 incisors and 4 canines, for a total of 25% of our teeth. In general teeth are a good indication of what a species eats, since the teeth and the rest of the organism evolved together. Teeth are also a fantastic indicator of the health of the individual, anthropologists use the rate of cavities to tell how healthy the individual and society was. Coincidentally, vegetarians have a higher rate of cavities than the population at large. > Now if you don't want to be be a vegetarian fine but don't tell me it's impossible because that's just not true. I would kindly appreciate you not making up what I'm arguing and putting words into my mouth. I'm not saying humans are obligate carnivores, I'm saying they're omnivores. That means that we can survive off plants, I just think it's a bad idea.
  - gnosis89 8y ago
    Individuals can and do evolve, and then they pass that on to their children, that's how evolution works. Biological evolution is a very long and slow process, technological evolution is not. That's why our teeth are a poor indication of what we should be eating because of this revolutionary thing called cooking. Our teeth are records of our past evolution, not rules for our future or current evolution. The claim that vegetarians have higher rates of cavities is total bullshit. They actually have better dental hygiene.

taneq 8y ago

Speaking as a life-long vegetarian here, I don't think most people are naturally suited to it. I don't eat meat because I don't want to. I know I'd hate to live my life wanting, say, cheese, or spinach, or whatever, and denying it to myself because of some imagined higher good. I feel like people should embrace their nature. Mine doesn't happen to include eating meat. Most peoples' does, and that's OK.

ab71e5 8y ago
So then it's a nature/nurture kind of discussion. Do you think some people are genetically unable to stop eating meat? Personally, I think your tastes will adapt, i.e. it wouldn't feel like denying yourself anything after a while. But maybe it's different for some people. Also commercials and just society around you influences your cravings. I think if you would grow up somewhere where there is no dairy for example, you would not crave it.
- taneq 8y ago
  I don't think they're genetically unable to stop, but I think they're genetically predisposed to prefer eating meat if it's an option. I've gone without dairy for a couple of months here and there (while traveling in Asia where it's much less of a thing than at home) and definitely still missed it by the time I got home.