3 ms·

No, people making personal efforts like that has the opposite effect. It makes them think they are doing something that matters so they don't put any effort int

No, people making personal efforts like that has the opposite effect. It makes them think they are doing something that matters so they don't put any effort into pushing for the drastic changes required to fix the problem. People making individual efforts like that is about as useful as praying when it comes to preventing tragedy of the commons scenarios.

ekzy 8y ago
You could say that the effort is vain, but saying that it "has the opposite effect" is quite a strong statement. I am interested to hear how individual efforts of going vegetarian/vegan are contributing to global warming. And could you expand on "putting effort into pushing for the drastic changes"?
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  There are plenty of "be the change" types who don't vote, and who have disengaged from the political process.
  - verelo 8y ago
    Like i see personal level actions as a leader to future large scale group actions. Similar to electric cars, they’re inaccessible by cost to most, but the high cost purchaser is their path to mass adoption. Also, if a wealthy person cannot justify extra insulation to prevent energy waste, i sure don’t expect a poorer person to ever take the idea seeiously.
- your-nanny 8y ago
  Sometimes when people go to the gym, they give themselves a pay on the back and leave to iver eat their next meal. If, making small sacrifices encourages more extravagant indulgences, then yeah, maybe it could. However, I think that the second order effects need to be considered. As I mentioned in another post, sometimes you doing a thing makes it easier for others to do a thing, until a critical mass brings about a major change in state. For example, buying a fuel efficient vehicle encourages manufacturers to produce them. Eating and asking for vegetarian options encourages them to be offered, making it easier to become a vegetarian without being a stick in the mud. It can also change norms. Sometimes people won't do a thing because they don't want to go against norms. Like a guy out with his buddies ordering a burger instead of the salad he actually might prefer.
your-nanny 8y ago
both are true depending on the circumstance. for example going vegetarian encourages restaurants to offer more vegetarian options making entry into a vegetarian diet easier for others. Riding a bicycle makes car drivers more aware of cyclists, more awareness means it's safer to bike, means more will be willing to do it regularly, and more people who will advocate for bicycle friendly communities.
your-nanny 8y ago
funny you should say that because religious institutions have, historically, had a major role in preventing tragedies of commons.
Vinnl 8y ago
I know that people sometimes excuse bad behaviour by their other bad behaviour; however, to stick with the vegetarian example: more and more people around me, and in my country and general, have been going vegetarian, and this process is only accelerated because it is easier than ever to become one due to supermarkets and restaurants catering to this growing group. So sure, people are not going to be perfect immediately, but there's no doubt that even the non-vegetarians are far more aware of these issues due to the number of vegetarians around them. Meanwhile, the environmentally-friendly parties in my country and the surrounding ones have been growing in popularity. Besides, I'm not quite sure how you think people are going to be pushing for drastic changes if every step towards that actually is a step away from it. Would actively dumping toxic waste in our rivers be better? For change to happen, there needs to be a widespread push for it, and that widespread push isn't going to happen unless awareness spreads. Sure, it might already be too late for that push to make a difference, but about not doing anything we can at least be sure that it will not make a difference.

ekzy 8y ago

You could say that the effort is vain, but saying that it "has the opposite effect" is quite a strong statement. I am interested to hear how individual efforts of going vegetarian/vegan are contributing to global warming. And could you expand on "putting effort into pushing for the drastic changes"?

ForHackernews 8y ago
There are plenty of "be the change" types who don't vote, and who have disengaged from the political process.
- verelo 8y ago
  Like i see personal level actions as a leader to future large scale group actions. Similar to electric cars, they’re inaccessible by cost to most, but the high cost purchaser is their path to mass adoption. Also, if a wealthy person cannot justify extra insulation to prevent energy waste, i sure don’t expect a poorer person to ever take the idea seeiously.
your-nanny 8y ago
Sometimes when people go to the gym, they give themselves a pay on the back and leave to iver eat their next meal. If, making small sacrifices encourages more extravagant indulgences, then yeah, maybe it could. However, I think that the second order effects need to be considered. As I mentioned in another post, sometimes you doing a thing makes it easier for others to do a thing, until a critical mass brings about a major change in state. For example, buying a fuel efficient vehicle encourages manufacturers to produce them. Eating and asking for vegetarian options encourages them to be offered, making it easier to become a vegetarian without being a stick in the mud. It can also change norms. Sometimes people won't do a thing because they don't want to go against norms. Like a guy out with his buddies ordering a burger instead of the salad he actually might prefer.

your-nanny 8y ago

both are true depending on the circumstance. for example going vegetarian encourages restaurants to offer more vegetarian options making entry into a vegetarian diet easier for others. Riding a bicycle makes car drivers more aware of cyclists, more awareness means it's safer to bike, means more will be willing to do it regularly, and more people who will advocate for bicycle friendly communities.

your-nanny 8y ago

funny you should say that because religious institutions have, historically, had a major role in preventing tragedies of commons.

Vinnl 8y ago

I know that people sometimes excuse bad behaviour by their other bad behaviour; however, to stick with the vegetarian example: more and more people around me, and in my country and general, have been going vegetarian, and this process is only accelerated because it is easier than ever to become one due to supermarkets and restaurants catering to this growing group. So sure, people are not going to be perfect immediately, but there's no doubt that even the non-vegetarians are far more aware of these issues due to the number of vegetarians around them. Meanwhile, the environmentally-friendly parties in my country and the surrounding ones have been growing in popularity. Besides, I'm not quite sure how you think people are going to be pushing for drastic changes if every step towards that actually is a step away from it. Would actively dumping toxic waste in our rivers be better? For change to happen, there needs to be a widespread push for it, and that widespread push isn't going to happen unless awareness spreads. Sure, it might already be too late for that push to make a difference, but about not doing anything we can at least be sure that it will not make a difference.