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Even if you believe that, why shouldn’t there be a process to investigate the claims? You think all harassment claims should be automatically dismissed as false

Even if you believe that, why shouldn’t there be a process to investigate the claims? You think all harassment claims should be automatically dismissed as false instead?

sheepmullet 8y ago
> Even if you believe that, why shouldn’t there be a process to investigate the claims? Because it quickly becomes a witch-hunt. It is hard enough to have a fair investigation within a proper court system and legal framework - it’s far more likely any Google process will end up as a kangaroo court than the process leading to any justice.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  So you think all claims should be dismissed as false and people who are actually subjected to sexual harassment and coercion at work should have no recourse.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > So you think all claims should be dismissed as false Why would you think that? I think the majority of claims need to go into the “not really sure” bucket where they belong. Acknowledging this basic truth does not mean you have to then do nothing.
    - cimmanom 8y ago
      Which is why they merit investigation. For which there should be a process. Without an investigation process, what alternatives would you suggest for avoiding treating all claims as true or all claims as false?
      - sheepmullet 8y ago
        > what alternatives would you suggest There are many well tested solutions but they all carry different trade offs. E.g. - Have a zero tolerance policy on relationships between colleagues. This works well in smaller to mid-size companies. Or, - When you receive a complaint move the accuser and accused into different teams. Etc.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > When you receive a complaint move the accuser and accused into different teams. That's a very good way to be found liable for both later harassment by the accused and, if you move the accuser, for retaliation; and also a PR nightmare when it is discovered to have been your policy or even a common practice to move accused wrongdoers without follow-up (just ask the Catholic Church.)
        sheepmullet 8y ago
        > just ask the Catholic Church If priests had been moved around for simply leering at a woman or making a suggestive sexual comment I don’t think there would have been any outrage. I hope you don’t think I’m suggesting a company should cover up serious crimes - or any crimes for that matter.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > I hope you don’t think I’m suggesting a company should cover up serious crimes You are suggesting that they should shuffle people around without investigation to quiet complaints of situations against which are obligated by law to protect their employees, including potentially involuntary reassignment of the reporting party (again, without investigation of the facts) despite the legal prohibition on retaliation.
        sheepmullet 8y ago
        > to quiet complaints Uh no - to protect their employees from abuse. > despite the legal prohibition on retaliation. Why is it retaliation to seperate the accused and accuser? In fact if you don’t seperate them you are opening yourself up to legal liability and a PR nightmare.
YorkshireSeason 8y ago
all harassment claims should be No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. There should be an objective, measurable process. Given the cul-de-sac that organisations like Google have been strong-armed into, I think the obvious next step is (1) to record all work-time interaction of all employees and store them for a long time, e.g. at least 10 years. (2) Give a absolutely clear-cut criteria as to what counts as acceptable behaviour and what doesn't.
- ryanmercer 8y ago
  >No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. This. I imagine most are absolutely true, but there are some that absolutely are not. I've personally been accused by rape, online, of someone in another state that I've never even been to. Fortunately, no one took the claim serious but I imagine there are many innocent people that have been wrongly accused for whatever reason. I also had a friend, that was using OkCupid, reject a girl very politely in the first message or two. She then went on 'cheaterville' and posted that he gave her sexual transmitted diseases/infections and made multiple accounts alleging the same, one even as him with his name. He's an actor, he was up for a role and they retracted their offer when googling his name brought the cheaterville page up on the first page. Now if these two instances have happened to 2 guys from the midwest that have no power or money, I can only imagine there are quite a few false accusations regularly. I also imagine there are many many more TRUE accusations. We need to protect individuals regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation but at the same time we need to avoid workplace harassment turning into McCarthyism.
  - YorkshireSeason 8y ago
    I imagine most are absolutely true, I don't, for two reasons. (1) There is simply no agreement currently on what counts as harassment. (2) Anecdote: I've been involved in investigating a sexual harassment claim at a previous employer, at it was absolutely and categorically and provably false. turning into McCarthyism. Too late. That ship has sailed a long time ago. The situation has gotten so out of hand, that recording all employee interaction might indeed be the only way forward.

Even if you believe that, why shouldn’t there be a process to investigate the claims? You think all harassment claims should be automatically dismissed as false instead?

sheepmullet 8y ago

> Even if you believe that, why shouldn’t there be a process to investigate the claims? Because it quickly becomes a witch-hunt. It is hard enough to have a fair investigation within a proper court system and legal framework - it’s far more likely any Google process will end up as a kangaroo court than the process leading to any justice.

cimmanom 8y ago
So you think all claims should be dismissed as false and people who are actually subjected to sexual harassment and coercion at work should have no recourse.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > So you think all claims should be dismissed as false Why would you think that? I think the majority of claims need to go into the “not really sure” bucket where they belong. Acknowledging this basic truth does not mean you have to then do nothing.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    Which is why they merit investigation. For which there should be a process. Without an investigation process, what alternatives would you suggest for avoiding treating all claims as true or all claims as false?
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > what alternatives would you suggest There are many well tested solutions but they all carry different trade offs. E.g. - Have a zero tolerance policy on relationships between colleagues. This works well in smaller to mid-size companies. Or, - When you receive a complaint move the accuser and accused into different teams. Etc.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > When you receive a complaint move the accuser and accused into different teams. That's a very good way to be found liable for both later harassment by the accused and, if you move the accuser, for retaliation; and also a PR nightmare when it is discovered to have been your policy or even a common practice to move accused wrongdoers without follow-up (just ask the Catholic Church.)
        sheepmullet 8y ago
        > just ask the Catholic Church If priests had been moved around for simply leering at a woman or making a suggestive sexual comment I don’t think there would have been any outrage. I hope you don’t think I’m suggesting a company should cover up serious crimes - or any crimes for that matter.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > I hope you don’t think I’m suggesting a company should cover up serious crimes You are suggesting that they should shuffle people around without investigation to quiet complaints of situations against which are obligated by law to protect their employees, including potentially involuntary reassignment of the reporting party (again, without investigation of the facts) despite the legal prohibition on retaliation.
        sheepmullet 8y ago
        > to quiet complaints Uh no - to protect their employees from abuse. > despite the legal prohibition on retaliation. Why is it retaliation to seperate the accused and accuser? In fact if you don’t seperate them you are opening yourself up to legal liability and a PR nightmare.

YorkshireSeason 8y ago

all harassment claims should be No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. There should be an objective, measurable process. Given the cul-de-sac that organisations like Google have been strong-armed into, I think the obvious next step is (1) to record all work-time interaction of all employees and store them for a long time, e.g. at least 10 years. (2) Give a absolutely clear-cut criteria as to what counts as acceptable behaviour and what doesn't.

ryanmercer 8y ago
>No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. This. I imagine most are absolutely true, but there are some that absolutely are not. I've personally been accused by rape, online, of someone in another state that I've never even been to. Fortunately, no one took the claim serious but I imagine there are many innocent people that have been wrongly accused for whatever reason. I also had a friend, that was using OkCupid, reject a girl very politely in the first message or two. She then went on 'cheaterville' and posted that he gave her sexual transmitted diseases/infections and made multiple accounts alleging the same, one even as him with his name. He's an actor, he was up for a role and they retracted their offer when googling his name brought the cheaterville page up on the first page. Now if these two instances have happened to 2 guys from the midwest that have no power or money, I can only imagine there are quite a few false accusations regularly. I also imagine there are many many more TRUE accusations. We need to protect individuals regardless of race, gender and sexual orientation but at the same time we need to avoid workplace harassment turning into McCarthyism.
- YorkshireSeason 8y ago
  I imagine most are absolutely true, I don't, for two reasons. (1) There is simply no agreement currently on what counts as harassment. (2) Anecdote: I've been involved in investigating a sexual harassment claim at a previous employer, at it was absolutely and categorically and provably false. turning into McCarthyism. Too late. That ship has sailed a long time ago. The situation has gotten so out of hand, that recording all employee interaction might indeed be the only way forward.