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I think the BBC report that I submitted earlier this morning [0] did a better job of discussing the environmentalists' case. In particular, it linked to the Of

I think the BBC report that I submitted earlier this morning [0] did a better job of discussing the environmentalists' case. In particular, it linked to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs's civil complaint [1] which is probably the best version of the arguments against the telescope. Summary: the complaint alleges that mismanagement of the telescope site, including poor financial planning and procedural issues, has led to a history of hazardous material spills and car accidents, and that failure to implement the 2009 Comprehensive Management Plan constitutes a breach of contract. There is also a longer explanation of why Mauna Kea is sacred to native Hawaiians. For the record, I strongly support building the TMT. But the opposition isn't totally illegitimate and I think it's worth covering both sides fairly. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46046864 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46046864 [1] https://19of32x2yl33s8o4xza0gf14-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017-11-07-Complaint.pdf https://19of32x2yl33s8o4xza0gf14-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
So it sounds like it's less that the entire enterprise is offensive on the face of it (like building on Uluru in Australia would be), and more that the locals don't trust the management to be respectful of the land and not fuck shit up?
- Natsu 8y ago
  That's the sort of argument that was made in court, but see the link I posted above for more background on why they feel so strongly about this.
- SerLava 8y ago
  There are people who consider Mauna Kea to be sacred and there's not really anything that could argue against a specific person's particular belief. However I will say that there is no widespread religious activity involving the top of the mountain. There are far more people performing ceremonies and leaving sacrifices at Kilauea or even just various heiau, a type of man-made temple site. Even that is a very low proportion of native Hawaiians. People feel respectful of it and it has widespread meaning but these feelings are barely above average compared to the respect felt for all other geographical regions and features of Hawaii. My point here is that there's no substantive disruption to anyone's religious expression. Even these religious activities are pretty rare, as Christianity was pushed pretty hard once missionaries converted the royalty in the 19th century. Most of the time when people are against building telescopes, the conversation seems to carry on to reveal that it's kind of a proxy used to air greivances for the long history of ethno-political issues. There was a reference above referring to the telescopes as a violation of the Kingdom of Hawaii which hasn't existed for over a century- to include a telescope under that standard you would literally require the formation of a new country. Obviously in that case, building a dog house by the ocean would be equally impermissible. Ancient Hawaiians took their religion very very seriously, and still had quarries up there due to high quality stone availability, so they didn't seem to think technological exploitation was much of an affront. From what I know about Uluru, it's far more significant to a much larger swath of people, and it's a much smaller area than a whole mountain. Someone could have a different perspective than I do or might know something that would invalidate some of the points I made, and I welcome the input.
Natsu 8y ago
For further background, here's Will Falk, one of the earliest protest organizers, explaining his reasons for protesting - https://deepgreenresistancegreatbasin.org/civilization/colonialism/science-vs-the-real-world-on-mauna-kea/ https://deepgreenresistancegreatbasin.org/civilization/colon...

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

So it sounds like it's less that the entire enterprise is offensive on the face of it (like building on Uluru in Australia would be), and more that the locals don't trust the management to be respectful of the land and not fuck shit up?

Natsu 8y ago
That's the sort of argument that was made in court, but see the link I posted above for more background on why they feel so strongly about this.
SerLava 8y ago
There are people who consider Mauna Kea to be sacred and there's not really anything that could argue against a specific person's particular belief. However I will say that there is no widespread religious activity involving the top of the mountain. There are far more people performing ceremonies and leaving sacrifices at Kilauea or even just various heiau, a type of man-made temple site. Even that is a very low proportion of native Hawaiians. People feel respectful of it and it has widespread meaning but these feelings are barely above average compared to the respect felt for all other geographical regions and features of Hawaii. My point here is that there's no substantive disruption to anyone's religious expression. Even these religious activities are pretty rare, as Christianity was pushed pretty hard once missionaries converted the royalty in the 19th century. Most of the time when people are against building telescopes, the conversation seems to carry on to reveal that it's kind of a proxy used to air greivances for the long history of ethno-political issues. There was a reference above referring to the telescopes as a violation of the Kingdom of Hawaii which hasn't existed for over a century- to include a telescope under that standard you would literally require the formation of a new country. Obviously in that case, building a dog house by the ocean would be equally impermissible. Ancient Hawaiians took their religion very very seriously, and still had quarries up there due to high quality stone availability, so they didn't seem to think technological exploitation was much of an affront. From what I know about Uluru, it's far more significant to a much larger swath of people, and it's a much smaller area than a whole mountain. Someone could have a different perspective than I do or might know something that would invalidate some of the points I made, and I welcome the input.

Natsu 8y ago

For further background, here's Will Falk, one of the earliest protest organizers, explaining his reasons for protesting - https://deepgreenresistancegreatbasin.org/civilization/colonialism/science-vs-the-real-world-on-mauna-kea/ https://deepgreenresistancegreatbasin.org/civilization/colon...