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Remember that the CIA did worse (like droning children in Yemen), be careful what you wish for.

by nraynaud 8y ago

jorblumesea 8y ago
And China is literally exterminating the uighurs. Your point? Orthogonal to the issue at hand.
TheRealWatson 8y ago
I thought the topic was world trade.
- nraynaud 8y ago
  The topic is exposing spying operations in a bigger narrative of victimhood.
JPKab 8y ago
Yes, and the American people are allowed to talk about that, protest it and discuss it without being imprisoned. The knee-jerk "whataboutism" in discussions like these does nothing to help. While I understand the desire by many to hold the US more accountable, combined with the instinctive "love the underdog, hate the champ" philosophy that shapes the narrative of the global left wing, keep in mind that China's current state-capitalist structure is, economically, much more similar to Nazi Germany than to any Socialist or Communist state of the past.
- nraynaud 8y ago
  1) the whole point would be to prosecute it, not "discuss it". It's allowed to be discussed to the extent that nothing comes out of it, hence the classification of the details. 2) Remember that the narrative of the current US president is that the US is the underdog attacked from everywhere, and so some categories of enemies should be designated and dealt with at large scale and brutally, some of those ennemies will be internal sub-categories of people, and that the economy of war should be reinforced. I am not really defending China (just a bit, because I feel the racist undertone on those attacks), but I think having the last super-power behave like a good neighbor and a role model would have a more positive impact on the world than designating a few ennemies, waging war, destroying internal democracy to concentrate the power, and acting generally like a bully.
  - hopefulengineer 8y ago
    >I think having the last super-power behave like a good neighbor and a role model would have a more positive impact on the world the US was the only country on earth that had nukes for 5 years and was unscathed from WWII. We could have enslaved the entire planet under threat of nuclear fire, but instead we gave away billions to help Japan and Europe rebuild. There's never been a more selfless act in human history as far as a country not seizing an opportunity to gain power is concerned. There's probably never been a larger power disparity between a single country and the rest of the world than post WWII USA, and they did exactly nothing to take advantage of that disparity. Not to say US is innocent in recent years, but it's still minor considering there's nothing stopping us from plundering the world other than our own morals >I am not really defending China (just a bit, because I feel the racist undertone on those attacks) Russia gets slammed just as hard on all fronts and nobody cares to defend them, China can take a little abuse.
  - JPKab 8y ago
    So if the citizens of a predominantly white country take issue with industrial espionage by a country which happens to be filled with Han Chinese, it automatically has racist undertones? That is absurd. Are we racist towards Russians for spying as well? Additionally, please elaborate on how the US is currently "destroying internal democracy". As far as bullying goes, if you are referring to the trade war, I think blowing up trade deals which were drawn up decades ago to help sustain western Europe against Soviet aggression is a good thing, and long overdue. Germany shouldn't get to be the only rich nation with jobs for its working class. Likewise, China shouldn't get to pretend to be a developing nation (WTO) while keeping their citizens poor by devaluing the yuan to maintain mercantilist policies.

Remember that the CIA did worse (like droning children in Yemen), be careful what you wish for.

jorblumesea 8y ago

And China is literally exterminating the uighurs. Your point? Orthogonal to the issue at hand.

TheRealWatson 8y ago

I thought the topic was world trade.

nraynaud 8y ago
The topic is exposing spying operations in a bigger narrative of victimhood.

JPKab 8y ago

Yes, and the American people are allowed to talk about that, protest it and discuss it without being imprisoned. The knee-jerk "whataboutism" in discussions like these does nothing to help. While I understand the desire by many to hold the US more accountable, combined with the instinctive "love the underdog, hate the champ" philosophy that shapes the narrative of the global left wing, keep in mind that China's current state-capitalist structure is, economically, much more similar to Nazi Germany than to any Socialist or Communist state of the past.

nraynaud 8y ago
1) the whole point would be to prosecute it, not "discuss it". It's allowed to be discussed to the extent that nothing comes out of it, hence the classification of the details. 2) Remember that the narrative of the current US president is that the US is the underdog attacked from everywhere, and so some categories of enemies should be designated and dealt with at large scale and brutally, some of those ennemies will be internal sub-categories of people, and that the economy of war should be reinforced. I am not really defending China (just a bit, because I feel the racist undertone on those attacks), but I think having the last super-power behave like a good neighbor and a role model would have a more positive impact on the world than designating a few ennemies, waging war, destroying internal democracy to concentrate the power, and acting generally like a bully.
- hopefulengineer 8y ago
  >I think having the last super-power behave like a good neighbor and a role model would have a more positive impact on the world the US was the only country on earth that had nukes for 5 years and was unscathed from WWII. We could have enslaved the entire planet under threat of nuclear fire, but instead we gave away billions to help Japan and Europe rebuild. There's never been a more selfless act in human history as far as a country not seizing an opportunity to gain power is concerned. There's probably never been a larger power disparity between a single country and the rest of the world than post WWII USA, and they did exactly nothing to take advantage of that disparity. Not to say US is innocent in recent years, but it's still minor considering there's nothing stopping us from plundering the world other than our own morals >I am not really defending China (just a bit, because I feel the racist undertone on those attacks) Russia gets slammed just as hard on all fronts and nobody cares to defend them, China can take a little abuse.
- JPKab 8y ago
  So if the citizens of a predominantly white country take issue with industrial espionage by a country which happens to be filled with Han Chinese, it automatically has racist undertones? That is absurd. Are we racist towards Russians for spying as well? Additionally, please elaborate on how the US is currently "destroying internal democracy". As far as bullying goes, if you are referring to the trade war, I think blowing up trade deals which were drawn up decades ago to help sustain western Europe against Soviet aggression is a good thing, and long overdue. Germany shouldn't get to be the only rich nation with jobs for its working class. Likewise, China shouldn't get to pretend to be a developing nation (WTO) while keeping their citizens poor by devaluing the yuan to maintain mercantilist policies.