4 ms·

I bet for most folks on HN the mechanics and programming are the easy parts. The art is really what makes or breaks games. This is true, but from what I've see

I bet for most folks on HN the mechanics and programming are the easy parts. The art is really what makes or breaks games. This is true, but from what I've seen the gamedev community seems to generally take this adage too far. At a recent meetup, I spoke to a developer for a project updating a well known IP. Their multiplayer slows down then crashes. I started asking questions, like, do the synchronizing objects have an update cycle? He didn't know, and it had been going on for months. There's some big fraction of gamedevs who seem to think of programming as almost an afterthought. I see a parallel with the fraction of recent grads who think all they need of programming is the ability to glue libraries together. The medium really needs a balance of multiple abilities. Otherwise, it's like a musician who can write lyrics, but can't sing and play, or someone who has excellent chops on the guitar, but can't sing and write lyrics.

crazypyro 8y ago
You'll find this anywhere the entry barriers are slowly eroded. I think this is a good thing in most scenarios, because it means people can achieve equal or greater things with even less knowledge. While it does cause gaps in logic and nobody wants to be supporting a code base in a professional setting that was built with design/architecture as an afterthought, it's still cool that more people than ever can do something like make a website or a game.
- clarry 8y ago
  > it's still cool that more people than ever can do something like make a website or a game. I really don't know if it is cool. Seeing the market saturated with mediocre (and worse) creations is more depressing than cool for me. And I feel like it's only lowering the bar, where people can't demand quality and those who create can't put in the effort because there's not enough demand for it.
  - Nzen 8y ago
    Any reply likely relies on our assumptions about how we derive quality product from ourselves others. I can spin a narrative whereby the app store fills up with fart soundboards, but famous artist (or team) is able to practice and later in life make really great app/game/art because they have a fresh, minority perspective. In the alternate narrative, said person (or team) wasn't able to build a portfolio enough for the first rung and pivoted to some other hobby/industry. Presumably we've already formed the assumptions that guide which narrative we value more.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      The problem with tons of shovelware, is the particularly deceptive noise in the S/N ratio. The old adage is that you shouldn't hide a needle in a haystack. Instead you should hide it in a pile of other needles. A big problem with particular kinds of shovelware is that under-technically qualified people are able to make something that looks great, and even plays great for the 1st hour. Then the bugs start creeping in.
pm90 8y ago
Understanding the concepts behind e.g. how tcp/ip works is hard and requires a lot of dedicated effort. I think for those with an engineering/CS background it might be easier, but I can see why game artists or indie gamemakers may not always know these things.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Understanding the concepts behind e.g. how tcp/ip works is hard and requires a lot of dedicated effort. In the case I cite, it's not TCP/IP at all! It's very generalized systemic thinking. Just picture a diagram with boxes and arrows, and start thinking about how the messages go across and what happens next. I also see a lack of generalized systemic thinking in too many of the high GPA Comp Sci grads I've interviewed at work. (Even to the point where they embarrassingly try to handwave entire fields in CS!) I can see why game artists or indie gamemakers may not always know these things. Everyone working on a movie needs to know some cinema/storytelling basics, so they know how the little piece they are working on can best contribute to the overall project. Everyone in a band needs to know stagecraft, so they know how to enhance the presentation and not commit a stagecraft faux pas. I've seen multiple occasions where gamedevs are shooting themselves in the foot because they can't do basic systemic thinking.
  - kbenson 8y ago
    I think perhaps this is a side-effect of the barrier to entry being lowered so far that it's feasible to be a single person game developer, and I think being a single person anything that requires for technical skill and artistic ability is hard, but also easy for an individual to fool themselves about (at least for a time). I think in most industries where individuals can actually contribute usefully, the industry develops a way to supplement these people and make up for their shortcomings. For example, the talented singler, musician, songwriter, or author will find that if they look around (and are lucky and or actually talented), there are structures in place to help them find the feedback (or additional people to group with) that they need. Perhaps indie game development just isn't quite to that maturity yet. Then again, the game industry seems both cutthroat and dysfunctional enough that it might take a while before something like this can develop.
superhuzza 8y ago
"it's like a musician who can write lyrics, but can't sing and play, or someone who has excellent chops on the guitar, but can't sing and write lyrics." That's an interesting observation, because that's how a lot of the music industry works. Lots of songwriters who aren't good at performing, great performers who can't write well, instrumentalists who can't sing etc.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  That's an interesting observation, because that's how a lot of the music industry works. Lots of songwriters who aren't good at performing, great performers who can't write well, instrumentalists who can't sing etc. Right. But in the music industry, most people know if their only strength is singing, they know should team up with people who can handle the instruments and the songwriting.
thrower123 8y ago
Some strains of Unity game development seems to be especially susceptible to this kind of slamming together stuff from the asset store without understanding how it works. I've tried a couple times to get into Unity, because it looks like a fabulously productive tool, but I struggle a lot because it feels like there is a lot of slop in how everything works - at least compared to the sense of control you expect when you are used to having to write your own game loop and your own input handling and rendering etc etc.
- apk-d 8y ago
  I tend to wrap, or even refactor purchased assets to suit my needs. In that way it more closely resembles the workflow of collaboration with other developers - they provide a working implementation and you tweak it for your use case. This breaks future asset updates, though, so you need to be sure that you won't need them. To be honest, the code quality in most assets I encounter is so low that sometimes I even throw away the scripts and only use the meshes/textures/shaders/etc. (I'm looking at you, that-one-very-popular-vfx-pack!)
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    To be honest, the code quality in most assets I encounter is so low that sometimes I even throw away the scripts and only use the meshes/textures/shaders/etc. This is some kind of systemic market failure. The general population of the market itself is so low-information that it can't properly distinguish between good and bad. It's pretty much the same problem as non-technical people hiring technical people. It's non-technical people evaluating code.
tom_ 8y ago
On every networked game I worked on, there was one guy working on the in-game network code. Nobody else had the faintest idea how it worked, though it was typically fairly well known at least what not to do in order to make his life no more difficult. (On two of those projects, I was the lead programmer, responsible, in theory, at some level, for all the code that went into the game. And I still couldn't have answered your question.)

crazypyro 8y ago

You'll find this anywhere the entry barriers are slowly eroded. I think this is a good thing in most scenarios, because it means people can achieve equal or greater things with even less knowledge. While it does cause gaps in logic and nobody wants to be supporting a code base in a professional setting that was built with design/architecture as an afterthought, it's still cool that more people than ever can do something like make a website or a game.

clarry 8y ago
> it's still cool that more people than ever can do something like make a website or a game. I really don't know if it is cool. Seeing the market saturated with mediocre (and worse) creations is more depressing than cool for me. And I feel like it's only lowering the bar, where people can't demand quality and those who create can't put in the effort because there's not enough demand for it.
- Nzen 8y ago
  Any reply likely relies on our assumptions about how we derive quality product from ourselves others. I can spin a narrative whereby the app store fills up with fart soundboards, but famous artist (or team) is able to practice and later in life make really great app/game/art because they have a fresh, minority perspective. In the alternate narrative, said person (or team) wasn't able to build a portfolio enough for the first rung and pivoted to some other hobby/industry. Presumably we've already formed the assumptions that guide which narrative we value more.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    The problem with tons of shovelware, is the particularly deceptive noise in the S/N ratio. The old adage is that you shouldn't hide a needle in a haystack. Instead you should hide it in a pile of other needles. A big problem with particular kinds of shovelware is that under-technically qualified people are able to make something that looks great, and even plays great for the 1st hour. Then the bugs start creeping in.

pm90 8y ago

Understanding the concepts behind e.g. how tcp/ip works is hard and requires a lot of dedicated effort. I think for those with an engineering/CS background it might be easier, but I can see why game artists or indie gamemakers may not always know these things.

stcredzero 8y ago
Understanding the concepts behind e.g. how tcp/ip works is hard and requires a lot of dedicated effort. In the case I cite, it's not TCP/IP at all! It's very generalized systemic thinking. Just picture a diagram with boxes and arrows, and start thinking about how the messages go across and what happens next. I also see a lack of generalized systemic thinking in too many of the high GPA Comp Sci grads I've interviewed at work. (Even to the point where they embarrassingly try to handwave entire fields in CS!) I can see why game artists or indie gamemakers may not always know these things. Everyone working on a movie needs to know some cinema/storytelling basics, so they know how the little piece they are working on can best contribute to the overall project. Everyone in a band needs to know stagecraft, so they know how to enhance the presentation and not commit a stagecraft faux pas. I've seen multiple occasions where gamedevs are shooting themselves in the foot because they can't do basic systemic thinking.
- kbenson 8y ago
  I think perhaps this is a side-effect of the barrier to entry being lowered so far that it's feasible to be a single person game developer, and I think being a single person anything that requires for technical skill and artistic ability is hard, but also easy for an individual to fool themselves about (at least for a time). I think in most industries where individuals can actually contribute usefully, the industry develops a way to supplement these people and make up for their shortcomings. For example, the talented singler, musician, songwriter, or author will find that if they look around (and are lucky and or actually talented), there are structures in place to help them find the feedback (or additional people to group with) that they need. Perhaps indie game development just isn't quite to that maturity yet. Then again, the game industry seems both cutthroat and dysfunctional enough that it might take a while before something like this can develop.

superhuzza 8y ago

"it's like a musician who can write lyrics, but can't sing and play, or someone who has excellent chops on the guitar, but can't sing and write lyrics." That's an interesting observation, because that's how a lot of the music industry works. Lots of songwriters who aren't good at performing, great performers who can't write well, instrumentalists who can't sing etc.

stcredzero 8y ago
That's an interesting observation, because that's how a lot of the music industry works. Lots of songwriters who aren't good at performing, great performers who can't write well, instrumentalists who can't sing etc. Right. But in the music industry, most people know if their only strength is singing, they know should team up with people who can handle the instruments and the songwriting.

thrower123 8y ago

Some strains of Unity game development seems to be especially susceptible to this kind of slamming together stuff from the asset store without understanding how it works. I've tried a couple times to get into Unity, because it looks like a fabulously productive tool, but I struggle a lot because it feels like there is a lot of slop in how everything works - at least compared to the sense of control you expect when you are used to having to write your own game loop and your own input handling and rendering etc etc.

apk-d 8y ago
I tend to wrap, or even refactor purchased assets to suit my needs. In that way it more closely resembles the workflow of collaboration with other developers - they provide a working implementation and you tweak it for your use case. This breaks future asset updates, though, so you need to be sure that you won't need them. To be honest, the code quality in most assets I encounter is so low that sometimes I even throw away the scripts and only use the meshes/textures/shaders/etc. (I'm looking at you, that-one-very-popular-vfx-pack!)
- stcredzero 8y ago
  To be honest, the code quality in most assets I encounter is so low that sometimes I even throw away the scripts and only use the meshes/textures/shaders/etc. This is some kind of systemic market failure. The general population of the market itself is so low-information that it can't properly distinguish between good and bad. It's pretty much the same problem as non-technical people hiring technical people. It's non-technical people evaluating code.

tom_ 8y ago

On every networked game I worked on, there was one guy working on the in-game network code. Nobody else had the faintest idea how it worked, though it was typically fairly well known at least what not to do in order to make his life no more difficult. (On two of those projects, I was the lead programmer, responsible, in theory, at some level, for all the code that went into the game. And I still couldn't have answered your question.)