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A strong concept and implementation will overcome art limitations. Just look at the success of Rimworld for example, which has sold over 1m copies - or of cour

A strong concept and implementation will overcome art limitations. Just look at the success of Rimworld for example, which has sold over 1m copies - or of course Minecraft (150m copies sold).

bduerst 8y ago
Or Dwarf Fortress, which inspired both Rimworld and Minecraft, and is free so the number of downloads are not tracked.
- fb03 8y ago
  I am a long time (15y+) player of Nethack, incurably addicted to it. Do you think I could maybe enjoy Dwarf Fortress?!
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Probably not, since you'll just gain a new addiction that will ruin your life. Honestly though try adventurer mode in DF, it's like LOTR meets Nethack. Or try fortress mode, and have fun! [1] [1] http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
  - jtolmar 8y ago
    Dwarf Fortress is more like if you liked Sim City but wished it was more like Nethack. It's quite a different beast, but you should give it a shot if that description sounds good. Also the UI is self-inconsistent and the learning curve is a cliff, so like... expect that going in. If you haven't played other traditional roguelikes besides Nethack, I'd recommend giving them a shot. Brogue and Shiren The Wanderer are both focused on resource management and exploiting monster/item properties, which you'll have seen some of in Nethack. DCSS is more about streamlined tactical and strategic decision making in a dungeon.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      >Dwarf Fortress is more like if you liked Sim City but wished it was more like Nethack. Only in fortress mode. Dwarf Fortress has two modes, and the second (Adventurer mode) is like an open-world nethack.
      - bastvig 8y ago
        Well, it actually has 3 modes. You can use the third (Legends Mode) to see the entire entity history of your world. Because it roughly simulates thousands of years of activity and tracks them, you can read about a Human Necromancer, the books he wrote, and his disciples. You can follow the dwarf that killed him, see that he gave up being a poet after his wife and child were killed by Zombax Warfbringer, the bronze colossus, and joined the army before cutting his way through zombies into the tower. Of course, he looted books (his past as a poet) and read them - giving him the secrets of life and death! So whoops he's now a necromancer. Oh well!
        jtolmar 8y ago
        Well, it actually has 4 modes. You can use the fourth (Object testing arena) to see who would win a hypothetical fight. Because it roughly simulates every organ and layer of flesh on every limb of every creature and stores them in a combat log, you can read about how a Dwarven Axelord sliced off the left pinky toe of a Human Necromancer. You can track where that pinky toe flew into the face of another dwarf, distracting him just long enough to be impaled by a skeleton. So whoops now he's bleeding out. Oh well!
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    As others have said DF is very different than Nethack. Although it is often put in the roguelike category for a variety of reasons, I think of it more as a story generator/doll house than as a game like Nethack. It basically allows you to create a world and then live in that world. You can play in adventure mode, which is somewhat like most roguelikes or you can play in fortress mode which allows you to experience the lives of a group of dwarves as they build a fortress. There is no purpose to the game, so it's basically all up to your imagination. You do whatever you want with no restrictions, but also no real added motivation. The main thing about DF is that it is full of bugs and/or strange coding artefacts. You need to have a kind of hacker mentality to play it because it's a massive puzzle to figure out how to do anything. It's surprisingly rewarding because you often think, "I wonder if X is possible" and after you hack away for a while you discover that it is. Or after you hack away for a while you discover that something even more wonderful is hiding away in there, the product of some weird unplanned generative properties of the massive game engine. For me, it's really this latter thing that is most compelling about the game. In Nethack it's said that the developers thought of everything. In DF it's more like the game engine has so much complexity that it has taken on a life of its own. I doubt there is any game that has the depth that DF has, but you have to tease out that depth. I think the game is well worth playing, though whether or not you will like it depends on a number of things. It is a massive time sink and requires endless fiddling, planning, and grinding. Sometimes it feels like a chore to play. But it is also massively rewarding. It depends a lot on the person.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    For sure. Having experience with a console game interface is a plus. I do, however, recommend the lazy newb pack. Especially since it contains DwarfTherapist, a tool that facilitates seeing the status and job assignments of each dwarf. Also I recommend following a beginner guide for the first couple games... or first several... or first dozen.
clarry 8y ago
It's funny that minecraft sold itself to me because of the graphics, not despite them. I saw a screenshot, and that's all it took. Had it looked like a modern big budget production, wouldn't even have wanted to know what's in the screenshot.

A strong concept and implementation will overcome art limitations. Just look at the success of Rimworld for example, which has sold over 1m copies - or of course Minecraft (150m copies sold).

bduerst 8y ago

Or Dwarf Fortress, which inspired both Rimworld and Minecraft, and is free so the number of downloads are not tracked.

fb03 8y ago
I am a long time (15y+) player of Nethack, incurably addicted to it. Do you think I could maybe enjoy Dwarf Fortress?!
- bduerst 8y ago
  Probably not, since you'll just gain a new addiction that will ruin your life. Honestly though try adventurer mode in DF, it's like LOTR meets Nethack. Or try fortress mode, and have fun! [1] [1] http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
- jtolmar 8y ago
  Dwarf Fortress is more like if you liked Sim City but wished it was more like Nethack. It's quite a different beast, but you should give it a shot if that description sounds good. Also the UI is self-inconsistent and the learning curve is a cliff, so like... expect that going in. If you haven't played other traditional roguelikes besides Nethack, I'd recommend giving them a shot. Brogue and Shiren The Wanderer are both focused on resource management and exploiting monster/item properties, which you'll have seen some of in Nethack. DCSS is more about streamlined tactical and strategic decision making in a dungeon.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    >Dwarf Fortress is more like if you liked Sim City but wished it was more like Nethack. Only in fortress mode. Dwarf Fortress has two modes, and the second (Adventurer mode) is like an open-world nethack.
    - bastvig 8y ago
      Well, it actually has 3 modes. You can use the third (Legends Mode) to see the entire entity history of your world. Because it roughly simulates thousands of years of activity and tracks them, you can read about a Human Necromancer, the books he wrote, and his disciples. You can follow the dwarf that killed him, see that he gave up being a poet after his wife and child were killed by Zombax Warfbringer, the bronze colossus, and joined the army before cutting his way through zombies into the tower. Of course, he looted books (his past as a poet) and read them - giving him the secrets of life and death! So whoops he's now a necromancer. Oh well!
      - jtolmar 8y ago
        Well, it actually has 4 modes. You can use the fourth (Object testing arena) to see who would win a hypothetical fight. Because it roughly simulates every organ and layer of flesh on every limb of every creature and stores them in a combat log, you can read about how a Dwarven Axelord sliced off the left pinky toe of a Human Necromancer. You can track where that pinky toe flew into the face of another dwarf, distracting him just long enough to be impaled by a skeleton. So whoops now he's bleeding out. Oh well!
- mikekchar 8y ago
  As others have said DF is very different than Nethack. Although it is often put in the roguelike category for a variety of reasons, I think of it more as a story generator/doll house than as a game like Nethack. It basically allows you to create a world and then live in that world. You can play in adventure mode, which is somewhat like most roguelikes or you can play in fortress mode which allows you to experience the lives of a group of dwarves as they build a fortress. There is no purpose to the game, so it's basically all up to your imagination. You do whatever you want with no restrictions, but also no real added motivation. The main thing about DF is that it is full of bugs and/or strange coding artefacts. You need to have a kind of hacker mentality to play it because it's a massive puzzle to figure out how to do anything. It's surprisingly rewarding because you often think, "I wonder if X is possible" and after you hack away for a while you discover that it is. Or after you hack away for a while you discover that something even more wonderful is hiding away in there, the product of some weird unplanned generative properties of the massive game engine. For me, it's really this latter thing that is most compelling about the game. In Nethack it's said that the developers thought of everything. In DF it's more like the game engine has so much complexity that it has taken on a life of its own. I doubt there is any game that has the depth that DF has, but you have to tease out that depth. I think the game is well worth playing, though whether or not you will like it depends on a number of things. It is a massive time sink and requires endless fiddling, planning, and grinding. Sometimes it feels like a chore to play. But it is also massively rewarding. It depends a lot on the person.
- manfredo 8y ago
  For sure. Having experience with a console game interface is a plus. I do, however, recommend the lazy newb pack. Especially since it contains DwarfTherapist, a tool that facilitates seeing the status and job assignments of each dwarf. Also I recommend following a beginner guide for the first couple games... or first several... or first dozen.

clarry 8y ago

It's funny that minecraft sold itself to me because of the graphics, not despite them. I saw a screenshot, and that's all it took. Had it looked like a modern big budget production, wouldn't even have wanted to know what's in the screenshot.