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I am continually amazed at the cynical attempt by hiring managers to try to pretend that the laws of supply and demand shouldn't apply to non-exec level staff.

I am continually amazed at the cynical attempt by hiring managers to try to pretend that the laws of supply and demand shouldn't apply to non-exec level staff. If you can't hire the people you want for what you're offering that should be a signal to pay more, not to whine that you can't force your idea of a reasonable wage on others.

petermcneeley 8y ago
Yes but you missed out on why they are doing this. This "whining" is actually about changing public perception such that business can take action to widen its access to a larger pool of skilled workers. The more competitive the talent market the more they can keep a larger share of their profits.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
BurningFrog 8y ago
True. On the other hand, there are hard limits to what companies can afford to pay their employees. Related to the same supply and demand laws.
- petermcneeley 8y ago
  I think your following the logic of the minimum wage laws. In this case however the wages are not fixed but purely determined by the market. Given that markets are optimizers of capital allocation, if a company cannot be profitable at the current values (relating to input and output) then it should not exist.
skybrian 8y ago
Job offers aren't a liquid market. Publicity is still needed or people won't find out about the job. It can be hard to tell whether the problem is with the job offer or word not getting out. Getting a story in the BBC and on Hacker News might help, though.
- repsilat 8y ago
  Exactly. Actions that spread information make the market more efficient, which is good for the business, their customers and the economy at large, if perhaps not for existing employees. The same goes for skills/training/policy. Getting the word out that programming is a comfortable, well-paid job that requires no formal education is a huge net win. Really I can't understand the grandparent's post... The article says "We tried paying more and it's not working" and their answer is "Try paying even more."
ableal 8y ago
Among the insightful humorous essays of C. Northcote Parkinson (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law ) there's one about wording job ads that says: "Only a little thought is needed to convince us that the perfect advertisement would attract only one reply and that from the right person."
matthewmacleod 8y ago
So while there is validity to this, my experience hiring staff is that there is genuinely a lack of skilled tech workers in the UK, especially at senior levels - it’s not just down to salary requirements. Sure - as demand goes up and supply is constrained, salaries have to rise. But it’s more complex than that - first, salary increases don’t magically increase supply. There’s a long lag time between salary rises and increased supply. On top of that, there’s a particular dearth of senior engineers. It’s easier to recruit people with less experience, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that and training them up - but this in itself takes quite a lot of investment and can be difficult in a small team. And third, the UK’s shitty immigration process and ongoing Brexit catastrophe make it more difficult to recruit developers from other countries. At some point, it becomes economically infeasible to run a functioning business as the staff you need become more expensive to hire. It’s good for people in that market, but it can also make it difficult to run a sustainable small business, and it’s okay to call attention to that. Like most things, it’s a bit of a balancing act.
- jfindley 8y ago
  I'm not sure I find this convincing. There are lots and lots of skilled tech workers in the UK that want permanent roles, but the really good ones already have well paid jobs, usually either for the finance sector or with Google/Facebook/etc. £100k to relocate to Cardiff isn't even slightly tempting to these people (source: I'm one of them). For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs[0][1]. As demand for good tech staff rises this is starting to equalise. This is a trend that's unlikely to reverse, and IMO this is a good thing. I appreciate that if you're trying to run a small business it's frustrating that you can't get the staff you want at the price you want to pay, but the solution isn't to hope that people will work for less you make you richer. You'll need to either adjust your budget, your expectations, or offer something that their current job doesn't give them (share of the business (with the same liquidation prefs that you have), or 100% remote, or something else along these lines). If you really can't do any of those things, then maybe your business just can't afford what you want and you'll need to hire more junior people and train them up. I've been on both sides of this fence, lots, and I've never once felt there was a shortage of good tech people in the UK, or found it hard to find smart candidates, it's just that the good ones expect to get paid well for the skills they have spent many years honing. 0: e.g. in Zurich finance and tech are compensated similarly, in London finance gets significantly more (sources: https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-salary-city-london https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-sa... https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-engineer-salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...) 1: http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salaries/ http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salar...

petermcneeley 8y ago

Yes but you missed out on why they are doing this. This "whining" is actually about changing public perception such that business can take action to widen its access to a larger pool of skilled workers. The more competitive the talent market the more they can keep a larger share of their profits.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

BurningFrog 8y ago

True. On the other hand, there are hard limits to what companies can afford to pay their employees. Related to the same supply and demand laws.

petermcneeley 8y ago
I think your following the logic of the minimum wage laws. In this case however the wages are not fixed but purely determined by the market. Given that markets are optimizers of capital allocation, if a company cannot be profitable at the current values (relating to input and output) then it should not exist.

skybrian 8y ago

Job offers aren't a liquid market. Publicity is still needed or people won't find out about the job. It can be hard to tell whether the problem is with the job offer or word not getting out. Getting a story in the BBC and on Hacker News might help, though.

repsilat 8y ago
Exactly. Actions that spread information make the market more efficient, which is good for the business, their customers and the economy at large, if perhaps not for existing employees. The same goes for skills/training/policy. Getting the word out that programming is a comfortable, well-paid job that requires no formal education is a huge net win. Really I can't understand the grandparent's post... The article says "We tried paying more and it's not working" and their answer is "Try paying even more."

ableal 8y ago

Among the insightful humorous essays of C. Northcote Parkinson (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law ) there's one about wording job ads that says: "Only a little thought is needed to convince us that the perfect advertisement would attract only one reply and that from the right person."

matthewmacleod 8y ago

So while there is validity to this, my experience hiring staff is that there is genuinely a lack of skilled tech workers in the UK, especially at senior levels - it’s not just down to salary requirements. Sure - as demand goes up and supply is constrained, salaries have to rise. But it’s more complex than that - first, salary increases don’t magically increase supply. There’s a long lag time between salary rises and increased supply. On top of that, there’s a particular dearth of senior engineers. It’s easier to recruit people with less experience, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that and training them up - but this in itself takes quite a lot of investment and can be difficult in a small team. And third, the UK’s shitty immigration process and ongoing Brexit catastrophe make it more difficult to recruit developers from other countries. At some point, it becomes economically infeasible to run a functioning business as the staff you need become more expensive to hire. It’s good for people in that market, but it can also make it difficult to run a sustainable small business, and it’s okay to call attention to that. Like most things, it’s a bit of a balancing act.

jfindley 8y ago
I'm not sure I find this convincing. There are lots and lots of skilled tech workers in the UK that want permanent roles, but the really good ones already have well paid jobs, usually either for the finance sector or with Google/Facebook/etc. £100k to relocate to Cardiff isn't even slightly tempting to these people (source: I'm one of them). For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs[0][1]. As demand for good tech staff rises this is starting to equalise. This is a trend that's unlikely to reverse, and IMO this is a good thing. I appreciate that if you're trying to run a small business it's frustrating that you can't get the staff you want at the price you want to pay, but the solution isn't to hope that people will work for less you make you richer. You'll need to either adjust your budget, your expectations, or offer something that their current job doesn't give them (share of the business (with the same liquidation prefs that you have), or 100% remote, or something else along these lines). If you really can't do any of those things, then maybe your business just can't afford what you want and you'll need to hire more junior people and train them up. I've been on both sides of this fence, lots, and I've never once felt there was a shortage of good tech people in the UK, or found it hard to find smart candidates, it's just that the good ones expect to get paid well for the skills they have spent many years honing. 0: e.g. in Zurich finance and tech are compensated similarly, in London finance gets significantly more (sources: https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-salary-city-london https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-sa... https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-engineer-salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...) 1: http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salaries/ http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salar...