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I worked in a large company where clojure was used. After the original developers moved on from that project (they always move on), it was a giant struggle to g

I worked in a large company where clojure was used. After the original developers moved on from that project (they always move on), it was a giant struggle to get people who could work in the code base. They ended up rewriting it in something more standard. Whatever benifit clojure provided was outweighed by the high cost of maintaining the code base and the inability to find devs who wanted to work on it. That’s my only data point with clojure.

jwhitlark 8y ago
I think this is a valid point. We talk about the right tool for the job, but forget that the evaluation needs to include the people using the tool, the people paying for the job to be done, and other elements of the environment.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
It saddens me to hear such stories as they show up from time to time. I can't help but feel that a lot of programmers just decide to stop learning at some arbitrary point in their career (my observations suggest that point is around the end of their university term or their first job). The industry too seems biased heavily in favor of using lowest-common-denominator, dumbest possible solutions they can get. And not "dumbest" in the sense of "simple therefore robust" - but in the sense of "barely suitable for the job at hand". It's like wanting to dig a pool, and hiring a lot of people with spades, even though you can get excavators for free - but what, you couldn't be bothered to find a few drivers? And the spade crew comes and is all, "no way we're going to learn to operate an excavator, that's too much, let's dig by hand". I can't explain it any other way. Learning Clojure, or another Lisp, to the point of being comfortable around a codebase, is a matter of weeks for an experienced programmer. It's comparable to the time you need to even figure out how to rewrite an existing mid-sized codebase, and since you have to read it to understand it, why not learn the language along the way? Then suddenly the rewrite isn't needed. But it feels like a concept of learning a new language on the job isn't even considered by people.
- lliamander 8y ago
  > I can't help but feel that a lot of programmers just decide to stop learning at some arbitrary point in their career (my observations suggest that point is around the end of their university term or their first job). Indeed. I had the frustrating, but ultimately fortuitous, situation of having my first job be one where I was asked to build a solution with woefully under-powered tools. I'm not even talking about the difference between hand tools and power tools - I was essentially asked to use kid toys. That situation made me very angry, and I was constantly working overtime to make up for the lack of productivity of my tools - even then we were going to miss our deadline. Finally, I managed to convince management to let me and my team use real tools - nothing super advanced, but well suited for the job. Very quickly we turned around the release, I started working normal hours, and when I left that job shortly after the release my employer found that they didn't need to hire a replacement because the workload was so much less. This experience taught me that the power of your tools does matter, and that the initial pain of technology transition can easily be outweighed by the benefits of using something better. For me, the quality I look for in my tools is: does it reward mastery? I'm not (primarily) looking the initial growth curve and how long it takes before I get to my current productivity. Rather, I'm looking at where the ceiling is.
nogridbag 8y ago
If I were seeking a Clojure job I would probably avoid companies that only use it for a single app while 90% of the active development is in more mainstream languages, especially if at any point during the interview process I get a feeling like I was being hired because all the other devs on the project jumped ship.
pyrhho 8y ago
Funny, I have the same story from the other side. They could have chosen to not alienate and lay off the clojure team. We were pretty happy, working on interesting projects, independent enough to get things done. But, turns out paying more for a smaller team of experts who know what they’re doing isn’t compatible with Quarterly-Earnings-Driven-Development.

jwhitlark 8y ago

I think this is a valid point. We talk about the right tool for the job, but forget that the evaluation needs to include the people using the tool, the people paying for the job to be done, and other elements of the environment.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

It saddens me to hear such stories as they show up from time to time. I can't help but feel that a lot of programmers just decide to stop learning at some arbitrary point in their career (my observations suggest that point is around the end of their university term or their first job). The industry too seems biased heavily in favor of using lowest-common-denominator, dumbest possible solutions they can get. And not "dumbest" in the sense of "simple therefore robust" - but in the sense of "barely suitable for the job at hand". It's like wanting to dig a pool, and hiring a lot of people with spades, even though you can get excavators for free - but what, you couldn't be bothered to find a few drivers? And the spade crew comes and is all, "no way we're going to learn to operate an excavator, that's too much, let's dig by hand". I can't explain it any other way. Learning Clojure, or another Lisp, to the point of being comfortable around a codebase, is a matter of weeks for an experienced programmer. It's comparable to the time you need to even figure out how to rewrite an existing mid-sized codebase, and since you have to read it to understand it, why not learn the language along the way? Then suddenly the rewrite isn't needed. But it feels like a concept of learning a new language on the job isn't even considered by people.

lliamander 8y ago
> I can't help but feel that a lot of programmers just decide to stop learning at some arbitrary point in their career (my observations suggest that point is around the end of their university term or their first job). Indeed. I had the frustrating, but ultimately fortuitous, situation of having my first job be one where I was asked to build a solution with woefully under-powered tools. I'm not even talking about the difference between hand tools and power tools - I was essentially asked to use kid toys. That situation made me very angry, and I was constantly working overtime to make up for the lack of productivity of my tools - even then we were going to miss our deadline. Finally, I managed to convince management to let me and my team use real tools - nothing super advanced, but well suited for the job. Very quickly we turned around the release, I started working normal hours, and when I left that job shortly after the release my employer found that they didn't need to hire a replacement because the workload was so much less. This experience taught me that the power of your tools does matter, and that the initial pain of technology transition can easily be outweighed by the benefits of using something better. For me, the quality I look for in my tools is: does it reward mastery? I'm not (primarily) looking the initial growth curve and how long it takes before I get to my current productivity. Rather, I'm looking at where the ceiling is.

nogridbag 8y ago

If I were seeking a Clojure job I would probably avoid companies that only use it for a single app while 90% of the active development is in more mainstream languages, especially if at any point during the interview process I get a feeling like I was being hired because all the other devs on the project jumped ship.

pyrhho 8y ago

Funny, I have the same story from the other side. They could have chosen to not alienate and lay off the clojure team. We were pretty happy, working on interesting projects, independent enough to get things done. But, turns out paying more for a smaller team of experts who know what they’re doing isn’t compatible with Quarterly-Earnings-Driven-Development.