4 ms·

They're going have plenty of angry customers because many casual users with large harddisks and fast connections have no concept of file sizes. I previously men

by xirium 18y ago

They're going have plenty of angry customers because many casual users with large harddisks and fast connections have no concept of file sizes. I previously mentioned this a while ago regarding similar plans from Time-Warner ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=109743 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=109743 ).

xirium 18y ago
They'll have very angry customers if they want to charge US$15 per 10GB. When you take into account the cost of harddisks and bandwidth, legal purchased film downloads could be more expensive than buying physical media from a retailer. The granularity of the proposed charge exacerbates the situation. US$0.15 per 100MB would be preferable.
- cstejerean 18y ago
  They're talking about charging $15 for each 10GB over the 250GB limit. At 5GB per DVD you can still download 50 DVDs per month (ok, probably less due to protocol overhead). That sounds reasonable.
  - Goronmon 18y ago
    Assuming downloadable HD movies become more prevalent in the future, that 250GB cap no longer seems as generous.
    - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
      Streaming video also throws a kink in the hose. There's no indication of how much bandwidth you are actually using when you use such a service. With no files persisting to the hard drive it's very difficult to say what your actual usage levels are.
      - smhinsey 18y ago
        You have the same problem with almost any streaming media, be it internet radio or youtube. I personally almost always have KEXP streaming in the background. I have no idea how much bandwidth I use for that alone but it's non-trivial.
  - xirium 18y ago
    I know of a house of non-geek professionals in London who collectively download 10GB per day, excluding protocol overhead. That's easily 300MB per month. Collectively, they're saturating a 2Mb/s connection much of the time. That may be obscene to some but in parts of Asia, 100Mb/s connections are affordable. So, if a 250MB per month limit becomes established and accepted, it could very quickly become constraining and economically damaging.
- Goronmon 18y ago
  I've heard comments in the past (though mainly in the direction of Time Warner) that these types of limits could be used to push forth a internet providers own distribution service. They could conceivably place hard-caps on everything except for services they provide and attempt to lock you into their own services so you can avoid the crazy overage fees. I'm not saying there is any real evidence for something like this to happen, just that the opportunity is there, and I wouldn't put it past a business to leverage a position like that.
  - xirium 18y ago
    There was a sentiment on the nnsquad [Network Neutrality Squad] mailing list that this could easily achieved using IP over ATM over optic fibre. You establish two ATM circuits: a public Internet connection that gets 1% of the bandwidth and a proprietary extranet that gets 99% of the bandwidth. Then, your ISP stalls and disregards network neutrality proposals. If you win equal access on the public bandwidth then it would only be a pyrrhic victory that obtains equal access to 1% of the avilable bandwidth. Meanwhile, your ISP could have a regional monopoly and have you beholden to any service which they choose to launch or not, at any price they choose, supporting any platform and DRM they choose.
  - wmf 18y ago
    That's such an obvious neutrality violation that the ISPs would be shamed into changing their policies. Of course, it gets trickier when the same company provides capped Internet access and uncapped non-IP-based services.
    - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
      Unfortunately it is well-established that the telecom industry has no shame.
  - murrayh 18y ago
    In Australia, Telstra already does this. They run an On Demand Entertainment business (music, movies, games and sport) where the content is 'unmetered' (when downloaded it does not get attributed to your Usage Allowance). They also have exclusive rights to online AFL content (national league of Australian rules football), so you can't watch AFL matches, press conferences and various other things online unless you use Telstra as your internet provider. FYI, you can see their exorbitantly priced plans here: http://my.bigpond.com/internetplans/broadband/adsl/plansandoffers/default.jsp http://my.bigpond.com/internetplans/broadband/adsl/plansando... Their overage charges are $1500 AUD per 10GB. Many A Current Afair story have been about some poor family slugged with a $10,000+ internet bill. Since Usage Allowance's are so low in Australia, pretty much all ISP's provide unmetered value added benefits, like ftp mirrors and game servers. I had never realised that these kinds of thing were not net neutral. If these features were revoked, my internet bills would increase by 25%, which I obviously would not be too pleased about. Gah, now I am troubled; I'll be thinking about this all day. EDIT: It appears these kinds of things are net neutral, because they don't restrict other people's packets.

by xirium 18y ago

xirium 18y ago

They'll have very angry customers if they want to charge US$15 per 10GB. When you take into account the cost of harddisks and bandwidth, legal purchased film downloads could be more expensive than buying physical media from a retailer. The granularity of the proposed charge exacerbates the situation. US$0.15 per 100MB would be preferable.

cstejerean 18y ago
They're talking about charging $15 for each 10GB over the 250GB limit. At 5GB per DVD you can still download 50 DVDs per month (ok, probably less due to protocol overhead). That sounds reasonable.
- Goronmon 18y ago
  Assuming downloadable HD movies become more prevalent in the future, that 250GB cap no longer seems as generous.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
    Streaming video also throws a kink in the hose. There's no indication of how much bandwidth you are actually using when you use such a service. With no files persisting to the hard drive it's very difficult to say what your actual usage levels are.
    - smhinsey 18y ago
      You have the same problem with almost any streaming media, be it internet radio or youtube. I personally almost always have KEXP streaming in the background. I have no idea how much bandwidth I use for that alone but it's non-trivial.
- xirium 18y ago
  I know of a house of non-geek professionals in London who collectively download 10GB per day, excluding protocol overhead. That's easily 300MB per month. Collectively, they're saturating a 2Mb/s connection much of the time. That may be obscene to some but in parts of Asia, 100Mb/s connections are affordable. So, if a 250MB per month limit becomes established and accepted, it could very quickly become constraining and economically damaging.
Goronmon 18y ago
I've heard comments in the past (though mainly in the direction of Time Warner) that these types of limits could be used to push forth a internet providers own distribution service. They could conceivably place hard-caps on everything except for services they provide and attempt to lock you into their own services so you can avoid the crazy overage fees. I'm not saying there is any real evidence for something like this to happen, just that the opportunity is there, and I wouldn't put it past a business to leverage a position like that.
- xirium 18y ago
  There was a sentiment on the nnsquad [Network Neutrality Squad] mailing list that this could easily achieved using IP over ATM over optic fibre. You establish two ATM circuits: a public Internet connection that gets 1% of the bandwidth and a proprietary extranet that gets 99% of the bandwidth. Then, your ISP stalls and disregards network neutrality proposals. If you win equal access on the public bandwidth then it would only be a pyrrhic victory that obtains equal access to 1% of the avilable bandwidth. Meanwhile, your ISP could have a regional monopoly and have you beholden to any service which they choose to launch or not, at any price they choose, supporting any platform and DRM they choose.
- wmf 18y ago
  That's such an obvious neutrality violation that the ISPs would be shamed into changing their policies. Of course, it gets trickier when the same company provides capped Internet access and uncapped non-IP-based services.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
    Unfortunately it is well-established that the telecom industry has no shame.
- murrayh 18y ago
  In Australia, Telstra already does this. They run an On Demand Entertainment business (music, movies, games and sport) where the content is 'unmetered' (when downloaded it does not get attributed to your Usage Allowance). They also have exclusive rights to online AFL content (national league of Australian rules football), so you can't watch AFL matches, press conferences and various other things online unless you use Telstra as your internet provider. FYI, you can see their exorbitantly priced plans here: http://my.bigpond.com/internetplans/broadband/adsl/plansandoffers/default.jsp http://my.bigpond.com/internetplans/broadband/adsl/plansando... Their overage charges are $1500 AUD per 10GB. Many A Current Afair story have been about some poor family slugged with a $10,000+ internet bill. Since Usage Allowance's are so low in Australia, pretty much all ISP's provide unmetered value added benefits, like ftp mirrors and game servers. I had never realised that these kinds of thing were not net neutral. If these features were revoked, my internet bills would increase by 25%, which I obviously would not be too pleased about. Gah, now I am troubled; I'll be thinking about this all day. EDIT: It appears these kinds of things are net neutral, because they don't restrict other people's packets.