7 ms·

True freedom cannot exist in the modern world. You are almost always indebted to a loan or a company or your tax man or your government. If you are telling your

True freedom cannot exist in the modern world. You are almost always indebted to a loan or a company or your tax man or your government. If you are telling yourself anything else, you are lying to yourself.

qubax 8y ago
True. Not only that, pretty much every stretch of land and ocean is owned/claimed/patrolled/etc now. So you can't escape it. Everyone is governed to some degree. Perhaps in the future when we are a truly space faring peoples, there will be room for freedom for those who chooes to be free.
- guelo 8y ago
  It's a shame our planet turned out to be so small.
  - InitialLastName 8y ago
    It's more of a shame there turned out to be so many of us.
agumonkey 8y ago
Freedom has a steep learning curve. Nomadic wild lifestyle is .. not cheap, but that's the upper limit to freedom isn't it.
grecy 8y ago
...well.... I've been living in a vehicle driving around Africa for 2.5 years now[1]. I'm technically a resident of no country (I have not spent more than 3 months in a single country in the last 2.5 years, and in all of those I only had a tourist visa where work was strictly prohibited) So I have no loans, and technically don't have to pay tax anywhere. I am not a citizen of the country I was previously residing in, so I have been unable to vote for 15 years, so I would say the government doesn't have much control over me. I would have to renew my passport in another 7 years, but I can do that online and just get it mailed anywhere in the world. I suppose I do pay some bank fees, though those are more than cancelled out by interest. I personally will run out of money and won't be able to do this forever, but I have bumped into hundreds of Germans who have more money than they could spend in 10 lifetimes, and have been driving and roaming around Africa/the entire world for 10+ years, utterly free. It's not uncommon. [1] I'm http://instagram.com/theroadchoseme/ http://instagram.com/theroadchoseme/
- Santosh83 8y ago
  Interesting. What do you do? Photograph? Research? Just travel to take in the world? How do you handle to language and cultural problems from region to region?
  - grecy 8y ago
    I decided that sitting at a desk was not the life for me (Software Engineer), so I'm working on being a Travel Writer and Photographer. I'm currently writing for about eight magazines, just published my first book, etc. Language and culture changes are not problems, they're the very reason I travel. Once I learned enough French the West Coast of Africa was great, and English has been enough in virtually every country in the East so far. I need to learn more Swahili. For Latin America once I learned Spanish I was set for virtually every country I drove through!
    - everdev 8y ago
      This sounds cool and adventurous! If you need a job though, your bosses would be your "master", especially if you need that income to survive. And it certainly sounds like a lot more freedom than most, but the country your van is parked in would be your "master" as well as you are subject to their laws and at the mercy of their justice system. That's how challenging it is to be free of any hierarchy in the modern world.
      - grecy 8y ago
        Like I said, for me the money will probably run out, but I continually bump into people where that is not a problem. They will do this for the rest of their lives. > you are subject to their laws and at the mercy of their justice system. While that's true in theory, in practice there is a hell of a lot of freedom here on the ground. It's extremely rare that I don't do something because "it's illegal" - i.e. riding on the top of a truck with no seat belt, riding a motorbike with no helmet, and basically anything else you would want to be doing. There is a lot of personal freedom in Africa (& Latin America)
frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
The freedom we experience is just the alignment of what you want to do and what you can do. Freedom is possible, just not for everybody.
rv-de 8y ago
What does "true freedom" mean to you? Having to find something to eat every couple of days or being at the mercy of the weather is also restricting freedom. I think freedom is a state of mind which can be compared with "acceptance of the present". From that perspective everybody can be free. (I'm not speaking for extreme situations like sickness or imprisonment)
jmull 8y ago
Did "true freedom" exist in the pre-modern world? If you lived in a social group, you were certainly subject to the group's rules and decisions (laws and government), including rules about contributing to the group (taxes) and most likely would end up owning favors or property to others at times (loans). If you didn't, you would likely spend the great majority of your time trying to subsist. Well, for a few years until you got sick and then you would die. That might be true freedom to some, but not something I would choose.
- stale2002 8y ago
  It absolutely existed. It was perfectly possible to homestead in many parts of the world, and never have to answer to anyone. It is not possible in the modern world to take some undeveloped land, claim it as your own, and make something out if it. All land is owned by somebody these days.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  I think it was definitely more free than now. In those groups, you typically had a voice and direct participation in the decision-making processes of the group. Now, we have the illusion of a choice, and pretty much no control over decisions, which get made by either the giant douche or the turd sandwich
- brbrodude 8y ago
  This question goes deep. You should check out James C. Scott stuff if you really want to broaden this. Your parallels of communities as governments/states/taxes/loans are invalid, IMO. I've ripped audios of a bunch of presentations by him on the topic, do this and see if you'll still frame things the same way, I think not.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Your freedom, or lack thereof, is all in your mind. You don't have to pay your debts, it's just that there are consequences for not doing so. Even without government or societies there are consequences to choices.
SeanAppleby 8y ago
If your capital gains consistently exceeds your expenses, then you aren't net indebted to anyone. Society has more financial debt to you than vice versa at that point.
pitaj 8y ago
Only through coercion can freedom be violated. Voluntary agreements like loans don't violate your freedom (though one could make a case for guaranteed loans being a special case). A person stealing your car violates your rights. The government taxing you violates your rights.
- codeulike 8y ago
  Doesn't coercion happen if you dont pay the loans back?
  - pitaj 8y ago
    No, because by breaking whatever contract you agreed to, you have defrauded the other party. Initiating fraud is a form of coercion. The defense of their property from that coercion is not itself a coercive act.
  - zanny 8y ago
    Its actually quite rare to have property repossessed for failing to pay back a, for example, credit card. A majority of debts you take on the lender won't go through channels to use force against you because those are time consuming and expensive on their part. The way credit scores work in simplest terms and theory is a non-coercive way of punishing people who defraud lenders. When your score tanks and nobody will lend to you anymore so you get punished for not paying your debts without any violence happening.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  Lots of the constraints of life are not voluntary though, but have been forced upon you by those with more power. You may need a payday loan because your boss wouldn't give you enough hours and your car broke down. Those are consequences of an artificial scarcity that is forced upon us and which enables the few to profit more from us. In the past it took the form of debt peonage.
  - pitaj 8y ago
    Those constraints are derivatives of the fundamental facts of nature. You are not forced by your boss to work, you are forced by nature to work for the necessities of life.

qubax 8y ago

True. Not only that, pretty much every stretch of land and ocean is owned/claimed/patrolled/etc now. So you can't escape it. Everyone is governed to some degree. Perhaps in the future when we are a truly space faring peoples, there will be room for freedom for those who chooes to be free.

guelo 8y ago
It's a shame our planet turned out to be so small.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  It's more of a shame there turned out to be so many of us.

agumonkey 8y ago

Freedom has a steep learning curve. Nomadic wild lifestyle is .. not cheap, but that's the upper limit to freedom isn't it.

grecy 8y ago

...well.... I've been living in a vehicle driving around Africa for 2.5 years now[1]. I'm technically a resident of no country (I have not spent more than 3 months in a single country in the last 2.5 years, and in all of those I only had a tourist visa where work was strictly prohibited) So I have no loans, and technically don't have to pay tax anywhere. I am not a citizen of the country I was previously residing in, so I have been unable to vote for 15 years, so I would say the government doesn't have much control over me. I would have to renew my passport in another 7 years, but I can do that online and just get it mailed anywhere in the world. I suppose I do pay some bank fees, though those are more than cancelled out by interest. I personally will run out of money and won't be able to do this forever, but I have bumped into hundreds of Germans who have more money than they could spend in 10 lifetimes, and have been driving and roaming around Africa/the entire world for 10+ years, utterly free. It's not uncommon. [1] I'm http://instagram.com/theroadchoseme/ http://instagram.com/theroadchoseme/

Santosh83 8y ago
Interesting. What do you do? Photograph? Research? Just travel to take in the world? How do you handle to language and cultural problems from region to region?
- grecy 8y ago
  I decided that sitting at a desk was not the life for me (Software Engineer), so I'm working on being a Travel Writer and Photographer. I'm currently writing for about eight magazines, just published my first book, etc. Language and culture changes are not problems, they're the very reason I travel. Once I learned enough French the West Coast of Africa was great, and English has been enough in virtually every country in the East so far. I need to learn more Swahili. For Latin America once I learned Spanish I was set for virtually every country I drove through!
  - everdev 8y ago
    This sounds cool and adventurous! If you need a job though, your bosses would be your "master", especially if you need that income to survive. And it certainly sounds like a lot more freedom than most, but the country your van is parked in would be your "master" as well as you are subject to their laws and at the mercy of their justice system. That's how challenging it is to be free of any hierarchy in the modern world.
    - grecy 8y ago
      Like I said, for me the money will probably run out, but I continually bump into people where that is not a problem. They will do this for the rest of their lives. > you are subject to their laws and at the mercy of their justice system. While that's true in theory, in practice there is a hell of a lot of freedom here on the ground. It's extremely rare that I don't do something because "it's illegal" - i.e. riding on the top of a truck with no seat belt, riding a motorbike with no helmet, and basically anything else you would want to be doing. There is a lot of personal freedom in Africa (& Latin America)

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago

The freedom we experience is just the alignment of what you want to do and what you can do. Freedom is possible, just not for everybody.

rv-de 8y ago

What does "true freedom" mean to you? Having to find something to eat every couple of days or being at the mercy of the weather is also restricting freedom. I think freedom is a state of mind which can be compared with "acceptance of the present". From that perspective everybody can be free. (I'm not speaking for extreme situations like sickness or imprisonment)

jmull 8y ago

Did "true freedom" exist in the pre-modern world? If you lived in a social group, you were certainly subject to the group's rules and decisions (laws and government), including rules about contributing to the group (taxes) and most likely would end up owning favors or property to others at times (loans). If you didn't, you would likely spend the great majority of your time trying to subsist. Well, for a few years until you got sick and then you would die. That might be true freedom to some, but not something I would choose.

stale2002 8y ago
It absolutely existed. It was perfectly possible to homestead in many parts of the world, and never have to answer to anyone. It is not possible in the modern world to take some undeveloped land, claim it as your own, and make something out if it. All land is owned by somebody these days.
kiliantics 8y ago
I think it was definitely more free than now. In those groups, you typically had a voice and direct participation in the decision-making processes of the group. Now, we have the illusion of a choice, and pretty much no control over decisions, which get made by either the giant douche or the turd sandwich
brbrodude 8y ago
This question goes deep. You should check out James C. Scott stuff if you really want to broaden this. Your parallels of communities as governments/states/taxes/loans are invalid, IMO. I've ripped audios of a bunch of presentations by him on the topic, do this and see if you'll still frame things the same way, I think not.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

Your freedom, or lack thereof, is all in your mind. You don't have to pay your debts, it's just that there are consequences for not doing so. Even without government or societies there are consequences to choices.

SeanAppleby 8y ago

If your capital gains consistently exceeds your expenses, then you aren't net indebted to anyone. Society has more financial debt to you than vice versa at that point.

pitaj 8y ago

Only through coercion can freedom be violated. Voluntary agreements like loans don't violate your freedom (though one could make a case for guaranteed loans being a special case). A person stealing your car violates your rights. The government taxing you violates your rights.

codeulike 8y ago
Doesn't coercion happen if you dont pay the loans back?
- pitaj 8y ago
  No, because by breaking whatever contract you agreed to, you have defrauded the other party. Initiating fraud is a form of coercion. The defense of their property from that coercion is not itself a coercive act.
- zanny 8y ago
  Its actually quite rare to have property repossessed for failing to pay back a, for example, credit card. A majority of debts you take on the lender won't go through channels to use force against you because those are time consuming and expensive on their part. The way credit scores work in simplest terms and theory is a non-coercive way of punishing people who defraud lenders. When your score tanks and nobody will lend to you anymore so you get punished for not paying your debts without any violence happening.
kiliantics 8y ago
Lots of the constraints of life are not voluntary though, but have been forced upon you by those with more power. You may need a payday loan because your boss wouldn't give you enough hours and your car broke down. Those are consequences of an artificial scarcity that is forced upon us and which enables the few to profit more from us. In the past it took the form of debt peonage.
- pitaj 8y ago
  Those constraints are derivatives of the fundamental facts of nature. You are not forced by your boss to work, you are forced by nature to work for the necessities of life.