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Totalitarian governments have a long history of “getting shit done”, as you put it. This is not new. Fewer megabridges is but one of the many prices you pay in

Totalitarian governments have a long history of “getting shit done”, as you put it. This is not new. Fewer megabridges is but one of the many prices you pay in return for freedom of expression. By the way, who do you think is most excited about being able to drive a bunch of shit into HK from mainland China on a monent’s notice?

Rylinks 8y ago
why? I do think there is a historical case, but what about freedom of expression makes it harder to build bridges, and is there a way to build bridges anyway?
- simonh 8y ago
  Just look at the political back and forth about new terminals at Heathrow. The public inquiries, consultations and local election battles have been going on for decades. Hardly an infrastructure project goes by without it being challenged in court by environmental and local interest groups. Democratic governments also have to publish detailed budgets and face electoral pressure on spending priorities. More infrastructure equals fewer hospital beds is a powerful political argument, it might be answerable but at least it has to be addressed. The Three Gorges Dam wiped out 13 cities, 140 towns and 1350 villages and dislocated 1.24 million residents. There were probably protests, but how would you know and what do you think happened to the protesters? Here in Britain we're having a permanent crisis building one more airport terminal. Autocratic regimes are completely opaque in their finances and budgetary priorities and care more about publicly visible results, of which flagship infrastructure projects are a prominent part.
- thrower123 8y ago
  I'm not sure freedom of expression is the main component; freedom from being rounded up into re-education camps or having everything you possess taken from you for the greater good if I say frog and you don't jump fast enough. When you have such a complete monopoly on force and authority, you can tell people to build bridges or else; hell, you can chase crackpot economic development ideas that starve tens of millions of your own people to death if you want.
- pesmhey 8y ago
  Figuratively, being free to express, “I don’t want to do this.”
imgabe 8y ago
If this is the trade-off that Western democracies are going to force on their citizens, then frankly they're going to lose. Because guess what: # of times in the average person's day when it is useful to be able to Google Tienneman Square: ~0 # of times when functioning public infrastructure is useful: All day every day. So shrugging your shoulders and saying "whelp, that's the price you pay for freedom of expression" is not a good enough answer. Sooner or later people are going to decide the price isn't worth it if their government isnt capable of doing anything that actually benefits them
- sho 8y ago
  You're being downvoted, probably for the flip Tiananmen Square reference, but I think there's a lot of truth to it. The Chinese are not dumb - they know a lot of bad stuff went down back in the day, and they're not supposed to ask too many questions, and for the most part they shrug and get on with their day. I'd say the attitude is like what most Americans might think about the Kent State "incident". Yes, it was horrible, but it was so long ago and nothing like that could ever happen again. And frankly it couldn't, the bloody PLA are not going to run over students in tanks in broad daylight being streamed live in HD around the world by every drone in Beijing. That said, there's a lot of fear in China about how long the government can keep the house of cards standing. The CCP derives its legitimacy from its successes - if things really start to go badly, there could be internal strife well beyond anything imaginable in the west. Their attempt to totally control information is really an indicator of weakness and paranoia, not strength. One would hope that if they can actually navigate the coming storms and build a genuinely healthy economy, the need for all that will gradually diminish. Of course, if they can't... well, I can see how being able to technologically inhibit massive rioting might be an appealing tool in the belt.
mandelken 8y ago
You are mistaken, freedom of expression in Hong Kong is on par with what you have in US or Europe. From my own experience, the media is even more independent than in Europe/US and definitely less of a police state than some parts in the US. Remember Snowden moved to Hong Kong to get his story out.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  I watch a lot of youtube videos from China from people interested in electronics. They're always out and about, shopping, having a great time. It's not the greatest source but it shows me it's really not this total crumbling s&+thole western media makes it out to be. The internet makes China out to be this place where everyone is just always working, have almost no rights anymore, constantly surveiled so they can't have fun or enjoyment, just NPC's making womens underwear for 2 cents an hour. I think it's just projection from the failures of their own country to be honest.
  - vackosar 8y ago
    could they be faking the lifestyle?
  - hyperbovine 8y ago
    That is a complete red herring. No one on this thread said any of those things. I think the media and internet portrayal of China these days is fairly accurate: a country filled gleaming new cities and hordes of well-off people, and also one in which you can get executed for stealing, disappeared for practicing the wrong religion, and tortured (or worse) for speaking out against the government. Also the fact that you seem to equate shopping with freedom strikes me as very American :-)
- rtpg 8y ago
  eh, to my knowledge the US gov't hasn't been kidnapping many booksellers in the past decade. And despite a bunch of nasty undemocratic stuff happening in the US, there were a lot of underhanded things going on in recent political events in HK. If Snowden was in HK with Chinese state intelligence (or more likely, details about party leadership scandals), he would not have been able to leave the country unscathed.

Rylinks 8y ago

why? I do think there is a historical case, but what about freedom of expression makes it harder to build bridges, and is there a way to build bridges anyway?

simonh 8y ago
Just look at the political back and forth about new terminals at Heathrow. The public inquiries, consultations and local election battles have been going on for decades. Hardly an infrastructure project goes by without it being challenged in court by environmental and local interest groups. Democratic governments also have to publish detailed budgets and face electoral pressure on spending priorities. More infrastructure equals fewer hospital beds is a powerful political argument, it might be answerable but at least it has to be addressed. The Three Gorges Dam wiped out 13 cities, 140 towns and 1350 villages and dislocated 1.24 million residents. There were probably protests, but how would you know and what do you think happened to the protesters? Here in Britain we're having a permanent crisis building one more airport terminal. Autocratic regimes are completely opaque in their finances and budgetary priorities and care more about publicly visible results, of which flagship infrastructure projects are a prominent part.
thrower123 8y ago
I'm not sure freedom of expression is the main component; freedom from being rounded up into re-education camps or having everything you possess taken from you for the greater good if I say frog and you don't jump fast enough. When you have such a complete monopoly on force and authority, you can tell people to build bridges or else; hell, you can chase crackpot economic development ideas that starve tens of millions of your own people to death if you want.
pesmhey 8y ago
Figuratively, being free to express, “I don’t want to do this.”

imgabe 8y ago

If this is the trade-off that Western democracies are going to force on their citizens, then frankly they're going to lose. Because guess what: # of times in the average person's day when it is useful to be able to Google Tienneman Square: ~0 # of times when functioning public infrastructure is useful: All day every day. So shrugging your shoulders and saying "whelp, that's the price you pay for freedom of expression" is not a good enough answer. Sooner or later people are going to decide the price isn't worth it if their government isnt capable of doing anything that actually benefits them

sho 8y ago
You're being downvoted, probably for the flip Tiananmen Square reference, but I think there's a lot of truth to it. The Chinese are not dumb - they know a lot of bad stuff went down back in the day, and they're not supposed to ask too many questions, and for the most part they shrug and get on with their day. I'd say the attitude is like what most Americans might think about the Kent State "incident". Yes, it was horrible, but it was so long ago and nothing like that could ever happen again. And frankly it couldn't, the bloody PLA are not going to run over students in tanks in broad daylight being streamed live in HD around the world by every drone in Beijing. That said, there's a lot of fear in China about how long the government can keep the house of cards standing. The CCP derives its legitimacy from its successes - if things really start to go badly, there could be internal strife well beyond anything imaginable in the west. Their attempt to totally control information is really an indicator of weakness and paranoia, not strength. One would hope that if they can actually navigate the coming storms and build a genuinely healthy economy, the need for all that will gradually diminish. Of course, if they can't... well, I can see how being able to technologically inhibit massive rioting might be an appealing tool in the belt.

mandelken 8y ago

You are mistaken, freedom of expression in Hong Kong is on par with what you have in US or Europe. From my own experience, the media is even more independent than in Europe/US and definitely less of a police state than some parts in the US. Remember Snowden moved to Hong Kong to get his story out.

prolikewh0a 8y ago
I watch a lot of youtube videos from China from people interested in electronics. They're always out and about, shopping, having a great time. It's not the greatest source but it shows me it's really not this total crumbling s&+thole western media makes it out to be. The internet makes China out to be this place where everyone is just always working, have almost no rights anymore, constantly surveiled so they can't have fun or enjoyment, just NPC's making womens underwear for 2 cents an hour. I think it's just projection from the failures of their own country to be honest.
- vackosar 8y ago
  could they be faking the lifestyle?
- hyperbovine 8y ago
  That is a complete red herring. No one on this thread said any of those things. I think the media and internet portrayal of China these days is fairly accurate: a country filled gleaming new cities and hordes of well-off people, and also one in which you can get executed for stealing, disappeared for practicing the wrong religion, and tortured (or worse) for speaking out against the government. Also the fact that you seem to equate shopping with freedom strikes me as very American :-)
rtpg 8y ago
eh, to my knowledge the US gov't hasn't been kidnapping many booksellers in the past decade. And despite a bunch of nasty undemocratic stuff happening in the US, there were a lot of underhanded things going on in recent political events in HK. If Snowden was in HK with Chinese state intelligence (or more likely, details about party leadership scandals), he would not have been able to leave the country unscathed.