6 ms·

Canada's last witch trials: Women accused of fake witchcraft

45 points by Thevet 8y ago

mprev 8y ago
This seems less about witchcraft as such and more about defrauding people. Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? This article is about prosecuting people for pretending to be a witch, rather than being a witch, which people were prosecuted for in the past.
- DanHulton 8y ago
  Well, as a religious practice, it's only really as fake as any other religion is... Which I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to debate.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    So... When Christian churches tell congregants that tithing 10% saves your soul, are they engaging in fraud?
    - krapp 8y ago
      Christian churches shouldn't be telling anyone that, because that's not how Christianity works, but if they did, yes I think they would be.
      - Retric 8y ago
        https://www.britannica.com/topic/indulgence https://www.britannica.com/topic/indulgence Now days it’s not mainstream, but I suspect a few preachers/televangelist has suggested such things more recently.
        PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        Selling indulgences was never mainstream or officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church, and it was formally banned almost 500 years ago. And, in any case, many modern churches and denominations are only tenuously connected to Catholicism of any era.
        Retric 8y ago
        It was Catholic doctrine at the time, and a significant portion of the protestant reformation. 'Luther came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. He strongly disputed the Catholic view on indulgences. Luther proposed an academic discussion of the practice and efficacy of indulgences in his Ninety-five Theses of 1517.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther Now, I am not saying the church selling indulgences from a specific menu of sins > prices was mainstream. But, the idea of good works on earth and specifically giving to the church being a good work was very much so. There are also cases of rather significant donations to the church connected to this idea. PS: Note, this is about reducing time spent in purgatory, not buying your way into heaven. Purgatory was supposed to be a very unpleasant place, but your stay was going to be temporary either way.
        Spooky23 8y ago
        Indulgences aren't a thing. The Catholic church today encourages giving "from the heart" without a specific tithe, and doesn't have a concept of indulgences. Mainline protestant churches fundamentally rejected the practice of indulgence. Evangelical churches are different from church to church by nature.
        joshuacc 8y ago
        This is incorrect. The Catholic Church still practices the use of indulgences, just not their sale. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church which was promulgated by John Paul II in 1992 and last revised by Pope Francis this year. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      I would put the word fraud on almost all church activities, but this is just my purely personal view.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      They have to launder it a little. The tithe helps keep the church there. The church helps you practice your faith. And practicing your faith may help save your soul.
    - nfriend 8y ago
      Absolutely, as this runs counter to one of core tenants of Christianity - saved by grace alone.
      - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
        Not all Christianity is Calvinistic/Puritanical, so no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      If you're going to take money for performing a service, you should be able to demonstrate that the service has been performed. Otherwise, yes, I'd call it fraud.
    - pessimizer 8y ago
      Nah, there's no way to prove that it doesn't. To prove fraud would require an examination of the soul both before and after tithing.
- krapp 8y ago
  >Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? It seems like an obvious question for a skeptic (it's all fake) but from a cultural and anthropological point of view, what constitutes "real" and "fake" witchcraft is an interesting question. There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence linking beliefs about witches during the times of witch-trials to any particular pagan or old-world religions - such beliefs being predicated on the Christian premise that witchcraft was explicitly Satanic, and practices like fortune telling tended to persist across cultures.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  >Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? I assume the distinction would be that the law targets people who pretend to practice witchcraft for the sake of defrauding people, rather than people who practice witchcraft "in good faith" because they are adherents of the religion.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? The same can be said about most religious practices and superstitions. It really doesn't matter what you (or I) think about other's personal practices so long as it isn't affecting others much. (I'd argue they all affect others, but so does any set of morals a person has whether religious or secular. Most of these don't actively harm other folks).
- octokatt 8y ago
  My mom worked as a witch/psychic/medium. She offered clients a potion, called "tea", and then let the person talk about their problems and prodded them occasionally until they realized what they needed to do. Adding some trappings let people open up because of assumed authority. Same as most religions, though I know she told a decent share of people to go get medical help. Very similar to the Terry Prachett version of witchcraft. Worked great. Not sure how much actual magic was involved, but I'm not sure how much needed to be.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
TL;DR the law prohibits fraud in the context of witchcraft and is being repealed along with laws against dueling and blasphemous libel because it is redundant and isn't really used except by prosecutors looking to throw the book.
billyjobob 8y ago
>"If you're going to invest $20, $40, $60 in a tarot reading and you find it's irrelevant to you, or did you no good, why would that being any different than going to a reiki treatment and finding that didn't work?" she asked. "Would you charge a reiki practitioner with fraud?" She makes an excellent point, but not the one she intended.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Agreed. But if you go to a tarot reading for purposes of entertainment (without deceptive promises from the practitioner), or to get general life advice and a supportive ear, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    The difference is that the false pretense of the engagement breeds the abusive behavior that is common in these sorts of engagements. The "magic" is just a veneer over the grift, and the entertainment aspect is a start of the sales funnel. That's why legitimate therapists, etc have professional associations and standards of ethics.
    - jkaplowitz 8y ago
      For the practitioners where you're right, there are plenty of other laws to go after them with. No need for one specific to scams disguised as magic. For the non-scammy entertainers, no need for a law whether it's real magic of pretend magic.
  - kingkawn 8y ago
    Tarot reading is discussion of ones life with the aid of a random number generator (the shuffled deck) to overcome preexisting maladaptive interpretations and cultural assumptions.
- meowface 8y ago
  It is a slippery slope, though. Do we need to prosecute all manufacturers of homeopathic medicine and all doctors who recommend it for fraud? All psychics, mediums, etc.? Does this extend to religious healers? Similar to reiki, what about people who claim acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments or crystal healing can treat serious diseases? What about doctors who recommend Eastern medicine practices like consuming certain organs of certain animals to treat issues? It is all fraud, but if we're going to be charging all people like that with fraud, then freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent. Many of these fraudsters genuinely believe what they're doing is legitimate and isn't fraud. Many of the clients genuinely believe it's legitimate due to their belief systems. An argument could be made that people should be allowed to spend their money as they choose and that the government should not be in the business of deciding if they're spending their money wisely. Gambling is another example.
Rjevski 8y ago
It’s a shame the law is being repealed. Seems like it’s doing it’s job perfectly fine at dealing with “witches” defrauding people out of tens of thousands of bucks. I don’t have a problem with “altruistic” witchcraft (although I still think anyone believing in this is an idiot) but there should be protections in place against these magicians exploiting the fears of vulnerable people for money.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  They're removing this law because the fraud involved is already covered by general fraud laws, not to condone fraud. There's no reason this specific type of fraud ought to have an extra criminal charge on top of the regular fraud charge.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  I get the feeling that many of the commenters on this story would love to see a law banning all religious practice.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    Given that religion preys on people’s fear and vulnerabilities, I don’t see why not. It’s a form of abuse.
  - krapp 8y ago
    I'd be fine with banning the tax exempt status of religious organizations and making the separation between church and state as explicit as possible.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      I also would like to see the Catholic Church treated like any other organization would have been treated whose members abused children and covered this up for decades.
  - fhood 8y ago
    Wouldn't make a difference. People will find something to blindly believe in regardless. Just look at politics.
AJ007 8y ago
When you see a storefront psychic, which appears to have no customers, in a place where it would seem the rent wouldn't support a handful of $20 readings a day, there is a reason why. People don't understand how widespread psychic fraud is or how much money they are stealing. Other religions or cults tend to be more ambiguous in the direct benefits donors will be receiving but often the general premise is the same.
canekong 8y ago
They pass the test if the witches can do the 7 wonders.
dmix 8y ago
The article doesn't mention a man sold his house and car for $600k to pay Samantha Stevenson (a Toronto psychic) to get evil spirits from his house: https://globalnews.ca/news/4594695/woman-charged-witchcraft-york-regional-police/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4594695/woman-charged-witchcraft-... I'm guessing the 60k charge is against this woman's sister or mother?

45 points by Thevet 8y ago

This seems less about witchcraft as such and more about defrauding people. Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft?

chrisseaton 8y ago
> Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? This article is about prosecuting people for pretending to be a witch, rather than being a witch, which people were prosecuted for in the past.
DanHulton 8y ago
Well, as a religious practice, it's only really as fake as any other religion is... Which I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to debate.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  So... When Christian churches tell congregants that tithing 10% saves your soul, are they engaging in fraud?
  - krapp 8y ago
    Christian churches shouldn't be telling anyone that, because that's not how Christianity works, but if they did, yes I think they would be.
    - Retric 8y ago
      https://www.britannica.com/topic/indulgence https://www.britannica.com/topic/indulgence Now days it’s not mainstream, but I suspect a few preachers/televangelist has suggested such things more recently.
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        Selling indulgences was never mainstream or officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church, and it was formally banned almost 500 years ago. And, in any case, many modern churches and denominations are only tenuously connected to Catholicism of any era.
        Retric 8y ago
        It was Catholic doctrine at the time, and a significant portion of the protestant reformation. 'Luther came to reject several teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. He strongly disputed the Catholic view on indulgences. Luther proposed an academic discussion of the practice and efficacy of indulgences in his Ninety-five Theses of 1517.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther Now, I am not saying the church selling indulgences from a specific menu of sins > prices was mainstream. But, the idea of good works on earth and specifically giving to the church being a good work was very much so. There are also cases of rather significant donations to the church connected to this idea. PS: Note, this is about reducing time spent in purgatory, not buying your way into heaven. Purgatory was supposed to be a very unpleasant place, but your stay was going to be temporary either way.
      - Spooky23 8y ago
        Indulgences aren't a thing. The Catholic church today encourages giving "from the heart" without a specific tithe, and doesn't have a concept of indulgences. Mainline protestant churches fundamentally rejected the practice of indulgence. Evangelical churches are different from church to church by nature.
        joshuacc 8y ago
        This is incorrect. The Catholic Church still practices the use of indulgences, just not their sale. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church which was promulgated by John Paul II in 1992 and last revised by Pope Francis this year. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM
  - saiya-jin 8y ago
    I would put the word fraud on almost all church activities, but this is just my purely personal view.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    They have to launder it a little. The tithe helps keep the church there. The church helps you practice your faith. And practicing your faith may help save your soul.
  - nfriend 8y ago
    Absolutely, as this runs counter to one of core tenants of Christianity - saved by grace alone.
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      Not all Christianity is Calvinistic/Puritanical, so no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    If you're going to take money for performing a service, you should be able to demonstrate that the service has been performed. Otherwise, yes, I'd call it fraud.
  - pessimizer 8y ago
    Nah, there's no way to prove that it doesn't. To prove fraud would require an examination of the soul both before and after tithing.
krapp 8y ago
>Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? It seems like an obvious question for a skeptic (it's all fake) but from a cultural and anthropological point of view, what constitutes "real" and "fake" witchcraft is an interesting question. There doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence linking beliefs about witches during the times of witch-trials to any particular pagan or old-world religions - such beliefs being predicated on the Christian premise that witchcraft was explicitly Satanic, and practices like fortune telling tended to persist across cultures.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
>Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? I assume the distinction would be that the law targets people who pretend to practice witchcraft for the sake of defrauding people, rather than people who practice witchcraft "in good faith" because they are adherents of the religion.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Having said that, is there any other kind of witchcraft than fake witchcraft? The same can be said about most religious practices and superstitions. It really doesn't matter what you (or I) think about other's personal practices so long as it isn't affecting others much. (I'd argue they all affect others, but so does any set of morals a person has whether religious or secular. Most of these don't actively harm other folks).
octokatt 8y ago
My mom worked as a witch/psychic/medium. She offered clients a potion, called "tea", and then let the person talk about their problems and prodded them occasionally until they realized what they needed to do. Adding some trappings let people open up because of assumed authority. Same as most religions, though I know she told a decent share of people to go get medical help. Very similar to the Terry Prachett version of witchcraft. Worked great. Not sure how much actual magic was involved, but I'm not sure how much needed to be.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

TL;DR the law prohibits fraud in the context of witchcraft and is being repealed along with laws against dueling and blasphemous libel because it is redundant and isn't really used except by prosecutors looking to throw the book.

billyjobob 8y ago

>"If you're going to invest $20, $40, $60 in a tarot reading and you find it's irrelevant to you, or did you no good, why would that being any different than going to a reiki treatment and finding that didn't work?" she asked. "Would you charge a reiki practitioner with fraud?" She makes an excellent point, but not the one she intended.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
Agreed. But if you go to a tarot reading for purposes of entertainment (without deceptive promises from the practitioner), or to get general life advice and a supportive ear, absolutely nothing wrong with that.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  The difference is that the false pretense of the engagement breeds the abusive behavior that is common in these sorts of engagements. The "magic" is just a veneer over the grift, and the entertainment aspect is a start of the sales funnel. That's why legitimate therapists, etc have professional associations and standards of ethics.
  - jkaplowitz 8y ago
    For the practitioners where you're right, there are plenty of other laws to go after them with. No need for one specific to scams disguised as magic. For the non-scammy entertainers, no need for a law whether it's real magic of pretend magic.
- kingkawn 8y ago
  Tarot reading is discussion of ones life with the aid of a random number generator (the shuffled deck) to overcome preexisting maladaptive interpretations and cultural assumptions.
meowface 8y ago
It is a slippery slope, though. Do we need to prosecute all manufacturers of homeopathic medicine and all doctors who recommend it for fraud? All psychics, mediums, etc.? Does this extend to religious healers? Similar to reiki, what about people who claim acupuncture or chiropractic adjustments or crystal healing can treat serious diseases? What about doctors who recommend Eastern medicine practices like consuming certain organs of certain animals to treat issues? It is all fraud, but if we're going to be charging all people like that with fraud, then freedom of speech becomes infringed to some extent. Many of these fraudsters genuinely believe what they're doing is legitimate and isn't fraud. Many of the clients genuinely believe it's legitimate due to their belief systems. An argument could be made that people should be allowed to spend their money as they choose and that the government should not be in the business of deciding if they're spending their money wisely. Gambling is another example.

Rjevski 8y ago

It’s a shame the law is being repealed. Seems like it’s doing it’s job perfectly fine at dealing with “witches” defrauding people out of tens of thousands of bucks. I don’t have a problem with “altruistic” witchcraft (although I still think anyone believing in this is an idiot) but there should be protections in place against these magicians exploiting the fears of vulnerable people for money.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
They're removing this law because the fraud involved is already covered by general fraud laws, not to condone fraud. There's no reason this specific type of fraud ought to have an extra criminal charge on top of the regular fraud charge.
vinceguidry 8y ago
I get the feeling that many of the commenters on this story would love to see a law banning all religious practice.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Given that religion preys on people’s fear and vulnerabilities, I don’t see why not. It’s a form of abuse.
- krapp 8y ago
  I'd be fine with banning the tax exempt status of religious organizations and making the separation between church and state as explicit as possible.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I also would like to see the Catholic Church treated like any other organization would have been treated whose members abused children and covered this up for decades.
- fhood 8y ago
  Wouldn't make a difference. People will find something to blindly believe in regardless. Just look at politics.

AJ007 8y ago

When you see a storefront psychic, which appears to have no customers, in a place where it would seem the rent wouldn't support a handful of $20 readings a day, there is a reason why. People don't understand how widespread psychic fraud is or how much money they are stealing. Other religions or cults tend to be more ambiguous in the direct benefits donors will be receiving but often the general premise is the same.

canekong 8y ago

They pass the test if the witches can do the 7 wonders.

dmix 8y ago

The article doesn't mention a man sold his house and car for $600k to pay Samantha Stevenson (a Toronto psychic) to get evil spirits from his house: https://globalnews.ca/news/4594695/woman-charged-witchcraft-york-regional-police/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4594695/woman-charged-witchcraft-... I'm guessing the 60k charge is against this woman's sister or mother?