8 ms·

How are they not going to go out of business when cheap Chinese competitors copy their open source design?

mcny 8y ago
Not that I know anything about manufacturing but from outside it looks like Apple's secrecy hasn't exactly prevented Chinese competitors from copying either.
- xienze 8y ago
  Well that’s the thing, once you start manufacturing something in China, you’re sunk. Doesn’t matter who you are, your IP is going to be stolen, midnight shifts will produce extra units that won’t be going to you, etc.
syntaxing 8y ago
Good question. So many companies go out of business because of Chinese competitors undermining the R&D margins. But then again, somehow companies like Prusa Research have steadily increased in sales even after three years of Chinese kits flooding the market before he (Prusa) even started his company. I hope it's the same for System76.
- antt 8y ago
  I hadn't heard of Prusa Research before, which is odd considering I seem to own a 3d printer that's been manufactured by them. I know where I will be getting my first sls 3d printer from.
  - lostapathy 8y ago
    I think you mean SLA printer? Prusa has nothing in the pipeline for sls, but they do sla.
wmf 8y ago
I think this misunderstands System76's business. Today they are selling rebranded Clevo laptops so they are already facing cheap Chinese competitors... and yet they stay in business because what they are really selling is Linux certification, branding, support, warranty, etc.
- acomjean 8y ago
  Exactly this. I bought one (an Oryx) to replace a macbook because it comes all set up and ready to go (no driver problems, no tinkering needed). I know it would have been cheaper to buy a machine and install linux on it but its a lot of extra work. I'd honestly just rather pay them to deal with it. I'm using there OS (pop!) which is Ubuntu based, and works fine (although I'm not sure why they have there own OS, it gave me pause frankly, they have Ubuntu as well). It works well and seems to have updates quite frequently. I really like the machine, its had no problems and has been easy to setup and use. There are some minor things I don't love, the battery life isn't great and I have to reboot to switch video cards (the laptop has 2 and only one supports external screens). But jetbrains software works and the web works fine, so I'm pretty happy.
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    >although I'm not sure why they have there own OS. I think this makes sense. Their core bussiness is producing an integrated Linux hardware/software package. When a compatability issue comes up, they probably don't want to have to wait on a third party to resolve it; especially when they can still leverage most of the work that said third party does (and; I presume, contribute back their work).
    - rlpb 8y ago
      Anyone can hold any status in Ubuntu regardless of who they work for. This is explicitly stated in Ubuntu's code of conduct which doubles as a sort of constitution. They could be Ubuntu developers themselves; then they wouldn't have to "wait on a third party" to resolve anything.
flukus 8y ago
They're selling trust, something even the high end Chinese (and many elsewhere) brands don't have. Trust it's going to work, trust they'll support it and trust that it won't come with spyware built in.
nostrademons 8y ago
They sell Linux machines that "just work" out of the box. Think of them as the Macintosh of Linux. You can build a Hackintosh out of cheap Chinese machines and cracked MacOS versions. Virtually nobody does, because the reason you buy from Apple in the first place is that you want the convenience of an all-in-one solution that just works and are willing to pay a premium for it. I used a Pangolin for my personal machine from 2013-2015. Replaced it with a MBP because I wanted to do some iOS/watchOS development, but it still works, and I still go back to it when I need a Linux laptop in a pinch. They're good, solid machines, and I could unbox it and boot up Linux without worrying whether some driver would be incompatible with the hardware.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I thought I would be getting that when I bought this Asus with Ubuntu pre-installed a couple of years ago. Since then, the wlan drivers got replaced, disk encryption had to be manually fixed and video hardware acceleration was gone and required patching the distribution. So much for Macintosh of Linux.
donbright 8y ago
to me it seems as though there is no precedent for it. Compare to IBM. IBM created the somewhat open "PC" platform in the 80s. Within ten years there were dozens, maybe hundreds, of companies making "PC Compatible" computers. IBM stopped making PCs. Their platform "won" the marketplace but they, as a company, left the marketplace. IBM is still in business because their primary business was not making or selling personal computers. Another comparison might be Google. Its a stretch because android is not a hardware platform as such, more of software. However Android phone is relatively open. As a platform Android has 'won' the marketplace. But Google's primary business is not selling phones or phone OSes. They make a handful of phones, and might stop at any time. There was the 3d printer company. Makerbot. They were theoretically supposed to be open. However they, well some of them in the company, wound up deciding it was not possible because of clones. So they went closed. They also sold out to a huge conglomerate whose primary business is not personal 3d printers. I am not sure if you could say their 'platform' has 'won'.... So if I am right, then if System76 creates an 'open platform' then there will be Compatibles springing up all over. System76 'platform' might win the marketplace. But what will happen to them as a company? What is their primary business. People mention Prusa. Maybe that might work.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  IBM did not create anything, Compaq took it away from them and IBM failed to regain control. There would be no open PC clones if IBM had succeed suing the clone makers or if PS/2 MCA architecture had actually worked out.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    They did assemble a standard from off the shelf parts. Few things are built from first principles since the scientific revolution.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Without Compaq reverse engineering the BIOS and doing it in such a way that IBM could not release their lawyers on them, there would not be an open PC, regardless where those parts came from. We would all be using variants of Atari, Amiga, Mac, Archimedes by now instead. Which ironically is what laptops, 2-1 and mobile platforms have become.
faissaloo 8y ago
Same reason Apple's survived this long: It just works.

mcny 8y ago

Not that I know anything about manufacturing but from outside it looks like Apple's secrecy hasn't exactly prevented Chinese competitors from copying either.

xienze 8y ago
Well that’s the thing, once you start manufacturing something in China, you’re sunk. Doesn’t matter who you are, your IP is going to be stolen, midnight shifts will produce extra units that won’t be going to you, etc.

syntaxing 8y ago

Good question. So many companies go out of business because of Chinese competitors undermining the R&D margins. But then again, somehow companies like Prusa Research have steadily increased in sales even after three years of Chinese kits flooding the market before he (Prusa) even started his company. I hope it's the same for System76.

antt 8y ago
I hadn't heard of Prusa Research before, which is odd considering I seem to own a 3d printer that's been manufactured by them. I know where I will be getting my first sls 3d printer from.
- lostapathy 8y ago
  I think you mean SLA printer? Prusa has nothing in the pipeline for sls, but they do sla.

wmf 8y ago

I think this misunderstands System76's business. Today they are selling rebranded Clevo laptops so they are already facing cheap Chinese competitors... and yet they stay in business because what they are really selling is Linux certification, branding, support, warranty, etc.

acomjean 8y ago
Exactly this. I bought one (an Oryx) to replace a macbook because it comes all set up and ready to go (no driver problems, no tinkering needed). I know it would have been cheaper to buy a machine and install linux on it but its a lot of extra work. I'd honestly just rather pay them to deal with it. I'm using there OS (pop!) which is Ubuntu based, and works fine (although I'm not sure why they have there own OS, it gave me pause frankly, they have Ubuntu as well). It works well and seems to have updates quite frequently. I really like the machine, its had no problems and has been easy to setup and use. There are some minor things I don't love, the battery life isn't great and I have to reboot to switch video cards (the laptop has 2 and only one supports external screens). But jetbrains software works and the web works fine, so I'm pretty happy.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  >although I'm not sure why they have there own OS. I think this makes sense. Their core bussiness is producing an integrated Linux hardware/software package. When a compatability issue comes up, they probably don't want to have to wait on a third party to resolve it; especially when they can still leverage most of the work that said third party does (and; I presume, contribute back their work).
  - rlpb 8y ago
    Anyone can hold any status in Ubuntu regardless of who they work for. This is explicitly stated in Ubuntu's code of conduct which doubles as a sort of constitution. They could be Ubuntu developers themselves; then they wouldn't have to "wait on a third party" to resolve anything.

flukus 8y ago

They're selling trust, something even the high end Chinese (and many elsewhere) brands don't have. Trust it's going to work, trust they'll support it and trust that it won't come with spyware built in.

nostrademons 8y ago

They sell Linux machines that "just work" out of the box. Think of them as the Macintosh of Linux. You can build a Hackintosh out of cheap Chinese machines and cracked MacOS versions. Virtually nobody does, because the reason you buy from Apple in the first place is that you want the convenience of an all-in-one solution that just works and are willing to pay a premium for it. I used a Pangolin for my personal machine from 2013-2015. Replaced it with a MBP because I wanted to do some iOS/watchOS development, but it still works, and I still go back to it when I need a Linux laptop in a pinch. They're good, solid machines, and I could unbox it and boot up Linux without worrying whether some driver would be incompatible with the hardware.

pjmlp 8y ago
I thought I would be getting that when I bought this Asus with Ubuntu pre-installed a couple of years ago. Since then, the wlan drivers got replaced, disk encryption had to be manually fixed and video hardware acceleration was gone and required patching the distribution. So much for Macintosh of Linux.

donbright 8y ago

to me it seems as though there is no precedent for it. Compare to IBM. IBM created the somewhat open "PC" platform in the 80s. Within ten years there were dozens, maybe hundreds, of companies making "PC Compatible" computers. IBM stopped making PCs. Their platform "won" the marketplace but they, as a company, left the marketplace. IBM is still in business because their primary business was not making or selling personal computers. Another comparison might be Google. Its a stretch because android is not a hardware platform as such, more of software. However Android phone is relatively open. As a platform Android has 'won' the marketplace. But Google's primary business is not selling phones or phone OSes. They make a handful of phones, and might stop at any time. There was the 3d printer company. Makerbot. They were theoretically supposed to be open. However they, well some of them in the company, wound up deciding it was not possible because of clones. So they went closed. They also sold out to a huge conglomerate whose primary business is not personal 3d printers. I am not sure if you could say their 'platform' has 'won'.... So if I am right, then if System76 creates an 'open platform' then there will be Compatibles springing up all over. System76 'platform' might win the marketplace. But what will happen to them as a company? What is their primary business. People mention Prusa. Maybe that might work.

pjmlp 8y ago
IBM did not create anything, Compaq took it away from them and IBM failed to regain control. There would be no open PC clones if IBM had succeed suing the clone makers or if PS/2 MCA architecture had actually worked out.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  They did assemble a standard from off the shelf parts. Few things are built from first principles since the scientific revolution.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Without Compaq reverse engineering the BIOS and doing it in such a way that IBM could not release their lawyers on them, there would not be an open PC, regardless where those parts came from. We would all be using variants of Atari, Amiga, Mac, Archimedes by now instead. Which ironically is what laptops, 2-1 and mobile platforms have become.

faissaloo 8y ago

Same reason Apple's survived this long: It just works.