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It's possible to create systems that are effectively impossible to use safely. I suspect that javascript on the web is a pretty well designed footgun, such that

It's possible to create systems that are effectively impossible to use safely. I suspect that javascript on the web is a pretty well designed footgun, such that it's the exception to find someone who can't hurt themselves in their confusion.

stephengillie 8y ago
If web browsers could interpret another language, would you make the same argument against it?
- itronitron 8y ago
  yes and no, the two big issues are that a) the SPA has to work within the very poorly documented render loop, for lack of a better term, of the browser and b) Javascript has some very idiosyncratic idiosyncracies and lacks some basic language functionality that is present in most languages
  - tambourine_man 8y ago
    Please explain what’s poorly documented in current browsers render loop.
    - itronitron 8y ago
      ok, if a div is added to the page body, and then another div is removed, what does the render loop do? any pointers to documentation are appreciated :)
      - tambourine_man 8y ago
        Quick Googling: https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/critical-rendering-path/render-tree-construction https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/c... https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/rendering/ https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/r... https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/rendering/simplify-paint-complexity-and-reduce-paint-areas https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/r...
- jaggederest 8y ago
  I think a big part of the problem is precisely the interpreted and web browser part of your post, so you're right, but I think at this point it's difficult to disabiguate the browser, the DOM, and JavaScript. I think JavaScript as a language also has problems that make it difficult to do large scale engineering with, thus transpilers. Maybe WebAssembly will provide fruitful ground for new, simpler, and more rigorous languages. I also think that much of modern web apps could be accomplished better with HATEOS apps doing pure server side. But I will allow that my beliefs there are at least partly nostalgic
  - zachrose 8y ago
    Using Elm, even a little bit, has given me a perspective on what a different language can do in the browser. If you subscribe to Gary Benhardt’s Capability/Suitability theory of programming history [1], JavaScript is the highly capable technology that can be used for any sort of architecture you can imagine, and Elm is a turn towards suitability that says, “some of those architectures are unsound or have a very low floor for quality.” You might want to abstract over DOM APIs for different reasons, but at their semantic core they are fine. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NftT6HWFgq0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NftT6HWFgq0
- canhascodez 8y ago
  I think that JavaScript is a really interesting and unique language. I would rather have had Perl in the browser. JS seems more appropriate as a relatively obscure academic language. Note that I tend to view trying to enforce types or use classes in JS as being misguided and futile, which does not seem to be a mainstream view.

stephengillie 8y ago

If web browsers could interpret another language, would you make the same argument against it?

itronitron 8y ago
yes and no, the two big issues are that a) the SPA has to work within the very poorly documented render loop, for lack of a better term, of the browser and b) Javascript has some very idiosyncratic idiosyncracies and lacks some basic language functionality that is present in most languages
- tambourine_man 8y ago
  Please explain what’s poorly documented in current browsers render loop.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    ok, if a div is added to the page body, and then another div is removed, what does the render loop do? any pointers to documentation are appreciated :)
    - tambourine_man 8y ago
      Quick Googling: https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/critical-rendering-path/render-tree-construction https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/c... https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/rendering/ https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/r... https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/rendering/simplify-paint-complexity-and-reduce-paint-areas https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/r...
jaggederest 8y ago
I think a big part of the problem is precisely the interpreted and web browser part of your post, so you're right, but I think at this point it's difficult to disabiguate the browser, the DOM, and JavaScript. I think JavaScript as a language also has problems that make it difficult to do large scale engineering with, thus transpilers. Maybe WebAssembly will provide fruitful ground for new, simpler, and more rigorous languages. I also think that much of modern web apps could be accomplished better with HATEOS apps doing pure server side. But I will allow that my beliefs there are at least partly nostalgic
- zachrose 8y ago
  Using Elm, even a little bit, has given me a perspective on what a different language can do in the browser. If you subscribe to Gary Benhardt’s Capability/Suitability theory of programming history [1], JavaScript is the highly capable technology that can be used for any sort of architecture you can imagine, and Elm is a turn towards suitability that says, “some of those architectures are unsound or have a very low floor for quality.” You might want to abstract over DOM APIs for different reasons, but at their semantic core they are fine. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NftT6HWFgq0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NftT6HWFgq0
canhascodez 8y ago
I think that JavaScript is a really interesting and unique language. I would rather have had Perl in the browser. JS seems more appropriate as a relatively obscure academic language. Note that I tend to view trying to enforce types or use classes in JS as being misguided and futile, which does not seem to be a mainstream view.