5 ms·

Yes, maybe med schools should also do physical tests as part of an entrance exam for surgeons. That would likely solve the problem, and it would also signal to

Yes, maybe med schools should also do physical tests as part of an entrance exam for surgeons. That would likely solve the problem, and it would also signal to kids interested in becoming surgeons to get good at hand/eye coordination, hand dexterity, and anything else that is important physically.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
classichasclass 8y ago
This assumes students have a good idea what specialty they plan to enter when they start medical school, which I assure you is not the case. Even then, there are "non-surgical" specialties where some surgical skills are needed, so it's not as simple as saying "surgeon or not." Family medicine and ob/gyn would be the classic ones, but also emergency physicians, for example.
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  That's what parents are for. I foresee a whole line of toddler dexterity toys.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    For toddlers, most toys are dexterity toys. We could do with more emphasis on knife use, carpentry, sewing/knitting, soldering, etc. among primary school students though.
  - ordu 8y ago
    There are lots of it, but it is not enough. Fine motor skills are aquired for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill I'd add that writing with a pen, playing musical instrument are important activities to develop fine motor skills. Just to buy toddles more toys would not work, without constant development later.
- pessimizer 8y ago
  > This assumes students have a good idea what specialty they plan to enter when they start medical school, which I assure you is not the case. No, it assumes that if you make surgery and related specialties areas that one has to plan to enter when one starts medical school, the surgeons that result will have better manual dexterity. Saying that if you change things, things will change, that is never a good argument against changing things. The real question is what the possible negatives would be of the change.
- pmart123 8y ago
  Couldn’t you make the same argument regarding whether testing physics or organic chemistry aptitude is necessary for every specialty? The admissions office could at least nudge students to not pursue surgery if they have poor dexterity.
  - classichasclass 8y ago
    Well, that sort of already happens, but some schools are admittedly better at this form of "career counseling" than others, and usually well after they have matriculated. At my own school we were required to have such an interview before we started clerkships and faculty members would try to develop this sort of self-insight about where one's skills and aptitudes are best, but years later the students who rotate with me now tell me this is optional, which seems like a step backwards.
- rpedela 8y ago
  And there are people who know exactly what they want to be at age 10. The goal isn't to graduate everyone who wants to be a surgeon. The goal is to graduate only the best people. If someone gets to med school, decides they want to do surgery, and fails dexterity, then guess what? They don't get to be a surgeon. I think that is okay and most likely produces better patient outcomes in the long-term.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

classichasclass 8y ago

This assumes students have a good idea what specialty they plan to enter when they start medical school, which I assure you is not the case. Even then, there are "non-surgical" specialties where some surgical skills are needed, so it's not as simple as saying "surgeon or not." Family medicine and ob/gyn would be the classic ones, but also emergency physicians, for example.

pnw_hazor 8y ago
That's what parents are for. I foresee a whole line of toddler dexterity toys.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  For toddlers, most toys are dexterity toys. We could do with more emphasis on knife use, carpentry, sewing/knitting, soldering, etc. among primary school students though.
- ordu 8y ago
  There are lots of it, but it is not enough. Fine motor skills are aquired for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_motor_skill I'd add that writing with a pen, playing musical instrument are important activities to develop fine motor skills. Just to buy toddles more toys would not work, without constant development later.
pessimizer 8y ago
> This assumes students have a good idea what specialty they plan to enter when they start medical school, which I assure you is not the case. No, it assumes that if you make surgery and related specialties areas that one has to plan to enter when one starts medical school, the surgeons that result will have better manual dexterity. Saying that if you change things, things will change, that is never a good argument against changing things. The real question is what the possible negatives would be of the change.
pmart123 8y ago
Couldn’t you make the same argument regarding whether testing physics or organic chemistry aptitude is necessary for every specialty? The admissions office could at least nudge students to not pursue surgery if they have poor dexterity.
- classichasclass 8y ago
  Well, that sort of already happens, but some schools are admittedly better at this form of "career counseling" than others, and usually well after they have matriculated. At my own school we were required to have such an interview before we started clerkships and faculty members would try to develop this sort of self-insight about where one's skills and aptitudes are best, but years later the students who rotate with me now tell me this is optional, which seems like a step backwards.
rpedela 8y ago
And there are people who know exactly what they want to be at age 10. The goal isn't to graduate everyone who wants to be a surgeon. The goal is to graduate only the best people. If someone gets to med school, decides they want to do surgery, and fails dexterity, then guess what? They don't get to be a surgeon. I think that is okay and most likely produces better patient outcomes in the long-term.