3 ms·

Sure I'll elaborate. By the way, if you have any way to fix these problems via configuration, please let me know. Minor complaint: the default theme is a fixe

by drblast 16y ago

Sure I'll elaborate. By the way, if you have any way to fix these problems via configuration, please let me know. Minor complaint: the default theme is a fixed-pixel gradient that doesn't rotate when you move the bar to the right, so the vertical bar looks like closed venetian blinds. I can change the theme, but the default should be better. Bigger complaints: The status icons and notification area don't rotate and/or crop themselves so you can't access most of the important icons. The application buttons DO rotate the text 90 degrees, but (my preference at least) they should be the only thing that doesn't rotate. The problem with horizontal application buttons is you quickly run out of space; I move the task bar vertical to eliminate that problem -- this is a problem with Gnome's implementation, not Ubuntu. I'd be happy to remove the top bar, but a lot of functionality (wireless configuration menus) is difficult or impossible to access without it. I normally have the terminal, browser, and emacs set to hotkeys as F1, F2, and F3, so I don't need an application menu other than to start apps I use infrequently. A context menu would be sufficient. Perfect world: What I'd really like is a blank screen with some method of seeing running applications that remains hidden most of the time, and a way to easily start applications, see wireless config, and log out. The last desktop I had that worked exactly the way I wanted it was FVWM, where everything was accessed via hotkeys and root window context menus. Unfortunately a lot of the niceness of Gnome, like the wireless config stuff, battery notifications, auto-mounting of USB Drives, and status icons you'd typically expect are dependent on using the Gnome/Nautilus interface. (At least I think that's the case.) I'd probably be happy with FVWM again if using it didn't mean abandoning all the configuration apps and automation that Gnome provides. Right now, I'd have to log in to FVWM, and start a bunch of scripts to configure wireless, start the 50,000 daemons that make Gnome run like a modern UI, etc. It's a lot of work to go through to reclaim 42 pixels from the top of my screen.

pyre 16y ago
Unfortunately a lot of the niceness of Gnome, like the wireless config stuff, battery notifications, auto-mounting of USB Drives, and status icons you'd typically expect are dependent on using the Gnome/Nautilus interface. (At least I think that's the case.) You can use a lot of GNOME without being on a 'GNOME desktop.' gnome-power-manager can run on it's own (and most of the information that the battery display applets use resides in /proc/acpi/battery/BAT0 (or BAT[1-9] I guess, if you have multiple batteries...). gnome-screensaver doesn't need to be run from within GNOME. IIRC the auto-mounting is shared between gnome-vfs (aka /usr/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/gnome-vfs-daemon on 10.04) and udev rules. The udev rules handle things like usb-mass-storage devices, and gnome-vfs handles things that get mounted to ~/.gvfs/ (like digital cameras). (FYI, udev rules are at the system-level and not dependent on desktop) Wireless is managed by the network-manager daemon which is launched on Linux boot (in Ubuntu). The controlling applet is nm-applet, which just accesses the backend-daemon. I remember there being a console app to interface with network-manager, but it wasn't that polished last time I looked at it. There is nothing stopping anyone from interfacing with network-manager in a standalone app. You could also swap network-manager with wicd (http://wicd.sf.net http://wicd.sf.net).
- drblast 16y ago
  You CAN do this, but it's a monumental effort to fix a tiny problem.
  - pyre 16y ago
    Maybe figuring out all of that information from scratch is, but things like replacing NetworkManager with WICD is as simple on Ubuntu as 'apt-get install wicd' (though I don't know off-hand if you need to add a 3rd-party repo, but it's not like Canonical hasn't added GUI interfaces for doing that -- rather than mucking around in /etc/apt/sources.{d/,list}) The udev rules that do the auto-mounting of usb-mass-storage devices are already there on your system. Unless you need to mount special devices like Bluetooth filesystems or digital cameras over USB, then you may not need gnome-vfs (and it may launch automatically once you first start nautilus, I'm not sure). Note, that in the past this auto-mounting was done by GNOME or KDE-specific daemons, udev has replaced them (at least on Ubuntu, and I assume Debian). Launching gnome-power-manager is as simple as adding "gnome-power-manager&" to whatever your startup script is. With someone that has the relevant information, these things are relatively easy. bbs.archlinux.org is a good resource too (since it seems lots of Arch users go for alternative desktop environments -- even if 'desktop environment' just consists of a window manager).
grobolom 16y ago
That's a lot of good points. But why not just auto-hide the topbar? Full functionality + Full space saving.
- drblast 16y ago
  That's what I end up doing. It works, but with most apps having tabs on the top of the window (Chrome in particular), I end up fighting the hidden taskbar when switching tabs or moving windows. Plus, I like to have a clock visible on the screen somewhere. These are such a minor complaints that they seem stupid, but on a netbook it's a huge annoyance, especially when Windows has solved it perfectly fine since Windows 98 or so. I guess my point is that if you're going to copy the Windows 95/98/XP interface, don't change the things that are obvious wins. I've been using Linux since 1997, and I'm tired of working around obvious flaws in the interface. I used to spend hours customizing my window manager so that everything was ridiculously efficient (and making Fvwm and Enlightenment themes); now I just want a sane default. When the first thing that happens when I move the top task bar to the right side is that there is no longer room for the notification area and half of the icons get cut off, and no way to fix this, it reeks of amateurism that should have been expunged years ago.
  - grobolom 16y ago
    Thinking again, I totally understand you plight. I've got the same problem on my netbook - having an easy-access calendar/time/mail indicator is much better than having to mouse over every time. My current solution (well, technically future - I have to remove this stupid Unity off my netbook - it does me more harm than good) is to pull the taskbar to the bottom and hide it. Sure, no clock, which sucks, but I guess I usually have my phone around for that. It beats the hell out of having the damn thing pop up whenever you want to open a new chrome tab, but it's not a perfect solution. I think that Unity is going the way of the Apple philosophy - screw customization, because for the 99% of users it only leads to indecision and unhappiness. Make some basic adjustments available as 'apps', but leave the core functionality untouchable. I wish I was a fan of that - sadly, I'm not. I understand the reasons behind it, and I totally support it. But I need something more - something that is customizable but intuitive, which is exactly why I chose Ubuntu in the first place. I hope it doesn't keep going in this direction.
Tichy 16y ago
It's been a while but I think you can recreate the stuff from the top bar in the bottom bar. I definitely had a network manager, and I never used the top bar.

by drblast 16y ago

pyre 16y ago

Unfortunately a lot of the niceness of Gnome, like the wireless config stuff, battery notifications, auto-mounting of USB Drives, and status icons you'd typically expect are dependent on using the Gnome/Nautilus interface. (At least I think that's the case.) You can use a lot of GNOME without being on a 'GNOME desktop.' gnome-power-manager can run on it's own (and most of the information that the battery display applets use resides in /proc/acpi/battery/BAT0 (or BAT[1-9] I guess, if you have multiple batteries...). gnome-screensaver doesn't need to be run from within GNOME. IIRC the auto-mounting is shared between gnome-vfs (aka /usr/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/gnome-vfs-daemon on 10.04) and udev rules. The udev rules handle things like usb-mass-storage devices, and gnome-vfs handles things that get mounted to ~/.gvfs/ (like digital cameras). (FYI, udev rules are at the system-level and not dependent on desktop) Wireless is managed by the network-manager daemon which is launched on Linux boot (in Ubuntu). The controlling applet is nm-applet, which just accesses the backend-daemon. I remember there being a console app to interface with network-manager, but it wasn't that polished last time I looked at it. There is nothing stopping anyone from interfacing with network-manager in a standalone app. You could also swap network-manager with wicd (http://wicd.sf.net http://wicd.sf.net).

drblast 16y ago
You CAN do this, but it's a monumental effort to fix a tiny problem.
- pyre 16y ago
  Maybe figuring out all of that information from scratch is, but things like replacing NetworkManager with WICD is as simple on Ubuntu as 'apt-get install wicd' (though I don't know off-hand if you need to add a 3rd-party repo, but it's not like Canonical hasn't added GUI interfaces for doing that -- rather than mucking around in /etc/apt/sources.{d/,list}) The udev rules that do the auto-mounting of usb-mass-storage devices are already there on your system. Unless you need to mount special devices like Bluetooth filesystems or digital cameras over USB, then you may not need gnome-vfs (and it may launch automatically once you first start nautilus, I'm not sure). Note, that in the past this auto-mounting was done by GNOME or KDE-specific daemons, udev has replaced them (at least on Ubuntu, and I assume Debian). Launching gnome-power-manager is as simple as adding "gnome-power-manager&" to whatever your startup script is. With someone that has the relevant information, these things are relatively easy. bbs.archlinux.org is a good resource too (since it seems lots of Arch users go for alternative desktop environments -- even if 'desktop environment' just consists of a window manager).

grobolom 16y ago

That's a lot of good points. But why not just auto-hide the topbar? Full functionality + Full space saving.

drblast 16y ago
That's what I end up doing. It works, but with most apps having tabs on the top of the window (Chrome in particular), I end up fighting the hidden taskbar when switching tabs or moving windows. Plus, I like to have a clock visible on the screen somewhere. These are such a minor complaints that they seem stupid, but on a netbook it's a huge annoyance, especially when Windows has solved it perfectly fine since Windows 98 or so. I guess my point is that if you're going to copy the Windows 95/98/XP interface, don't change the things that are obvious wins. I've been using Linux since 1997, and I'm tired of working around obvious flaws in the interface. I used to spend hours customizing my window manager so that everything was ridiculously efficient (and making Fvwm and Enlightenment themes); now I just want a sane default. When the first thing that happens when I move the top task bar to the right side is that there is no longer room for the notification area and half of the icons get cut off, and no way to fix this, it reeks of amateurism that should have been expunged years ago.
- grobolom 16y ago
  Thinking again, I totally understand you plight. I've got the same problem on my netbook - having an easy-access calendar/time/mail indicator is much better than having to mouse over every time. My current solution (well, technically future - I have to remove this stupid Unity off my netbook - it does me more harm than good) is to pull the taskbar to the bottom and hide it. Sure, no clock, which sucks, but I guess I usually have my phone around for that. It beats the hell out of having the damn thing pop up whenever you want to open a new chrome tab, but it's not a perfect solution. I think that Unity is going the way of the Apple philosophy - screw customization, because for the 99% of users it only leads to indecision and unhappiness. Make some basic adjustments available as 'apps', but leave the core functionality untouchable. I wish I was a fan of that - sadly, I'm not. I understand the reasons behind it, and I totally support it. But I need something more - something that is customizable but intuitive, which is exactly why I chose Ubuntu in the first place. I hope it doesn't keep going in this direction.

Tichy 16y ago

It's been a while but I think you can recreate the stuff from the top bar in the bottom bar. I definitely had a network manager, and I never used the top bar.