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Doing business with China has also helped lift 500 million people out of extreme poverty in the past 35 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China ht

Doing business with China has also helped lift 500 million people out of extreme poverty in the past 35 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

DataWorker 8y ago
Some seem to think the goal of all humanity should be to “lift everyone out of poverty.” Even if it destroys the planet and leads to massive humanitarian crises and ever greater suffering, putting dollars in wallets, that’s the point of it all. Homo economicus.
- antidesitter 8y ago
  When did lifting millions out of poverty lead to “massive humanitarian crises and ever greater suffering”? How callous and sheltered do you have to be to say something like that? Surely the absurdity of someone like you telling the world’s poor that they ought to stay poor doesn’t escape you?
  - biglenny 8y ago
    >How callous and sheltered do you have to be to say something like that? Keep the dialogue civil. It turns out that industrializing a society creates a lot of pollution. That pollution, as we've recently found out, is responsible for "the massive humanitarian crises and greater suffering" we are going to experience as impoverished nations continue to industrialize (ie. get lifted out of poverty). See: IPCC
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      Your premise is wrong. This is called the Environmental Kuznets Curve (EKC): https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0104013 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0195708 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... The solution to pollution is more economic development, not less. This becomes even more true once demographic transition effects (like declining birth rates) start to kick in.
      - biglenny 8y ago
        You don't understand what you are talking about. EKC works with pollutants that have short term, acute consequences. Think sulfates, nitrates, carbon monoxide, etc. EKC has not been proven true with pollutants whose effects are less concentrated and whose effects take longer to realize (CH4, CO2, etc). The catastrophes I'm referring to have little to do with the paper you cited.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        According to https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Presentation19-The-RelationshipBetweenCarbonDioxideEmissionsandEconomicGrowth-MGrubbBMullerLButler-2004.pdf https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2011/0..., it seems that there is a positive correlation between GDP per capita and carbon emissions per capita at first, but the correlation stops after that and becomes neutral. In the UK and US, for example, carbon emissions per capita remained roughly constant over a 50 year period even as GDP per capita increased significantly.
        biglenny 8y ago
        Area under the curve.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        What do you mean?
- cphoover 8y ago
  Aren't you using a laptop/phone or something to type this comment on? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    This is the kind of problem that individual action cannot solve. It's well modeled by tragedy of the commons. Similarly I'd vote for banning slaughter of animals for meat, but in the meantime am not a full-time vegetarian any longer.
  - biglenny 8y ago
    You got him bro!! If you don't like that mass industrialization and overpopulation costs us our planet and potentially our grandchildren's livelihoods, instead of using the most effective means to communicate your cause, go to Africa and live in the jungle!!!! epic
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      > You got him bro!! If you don't like that mass industrialization and overpopulation costs us our planet and potentially our grandchildren's livelihoods, instead of using the most effective means to communicate your cause, go to Africa and live in the jungle!!!! epic Do you not see the hypocrisy in replying to someone like this while saying "Keep the dialogue civil"?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - geoka9 8y ago
      > overpopulation costs us ... our grandchildren's livelihoods Oh the irony :)
    - dang 8y ago
      If you continue to troll threads by tossing in flamebait, we're going to end up having to ban you. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Leary 8y ago
  According to this, the greatest culprit isn't China. It's the industrial revolution.
- bzbarsky 8y ago
  "poverty" in this case is not "below the US poverty line". "poverty", when used in this context, means failure to satisfy the physiological layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: starvation, lack of decent shelter, disease, etc. The suffering from "poverty" in this sense is unimaginable to me. The fact that it's more or less hidden and not a big-ticket media item doesn't make it less of a humanitarian crisis or reduce the suffering involved. Or put another way, we're not talking about putting dollars in wallets. We're talking about putting food in children's mouths, clothes on their backs, roofs over their heads. Maybe even some education in those heads. Yes, I just used a "think of the children" argument, sorry.
spaceengineer 8y ago
And because of this government, tons of those people lost their jobs and had to go back to the rural farms, where they will go into extreme poverty again. The same government that made these people suffer through 40 years of pain, 70 years ago. It was American capital and knowledge that lifted these people out of extreme poverty.

DataWorker 8y ago

Some seem to think the goal of all humanity should be to “lift everyone out of poverty.” Even if it destroys the planet and leads to massive humanitarian crises and ever greater suffering, putting dollars in wallets, that’s the point of it all. Homo economicus.

antidesitter 8y ago
When did lifting millions out of poverty lead to “massive humanitarian crises and ever greater suffering”? How callous and sheltered do you have to be to say something like that? Surely the absurdity of someone like you telling the world’s poor that they ought to stay poor doesn’t escape you?
- biglenny 8y ago
  >How callous and sheltered do you have to be to say something like that? Keep the dialogue civil. It turns out that industrializing a society creates a lot of pollution. That pollution, as we've recently found out, is responsible for "the massive humanitarian crises and greater suffering" we are going to experience as impoverished nations continue to industrialize (ie. get lifted out of poverty). See: IPCC
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    Your premise is wrong. This is called the Environmental Kuznets Curve (EKC): https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0104013 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0195708 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... The solution to pollution is more economic development, not less. This becomes even more true once demographic transition effects (like declining birth rates) start to kick in.
    - biglenny 8y ago
      You don't understand what you are talking about. EKC works with pollutants that have short term, acute consequences. Think sulfates, nitrates, carbon monoxide, etc. EKC has not been proven true with pollutants whose effects are less concentrated and whose effects take longer to realize (CH4, CO2, etc). The catastrophes I'm referring to have little to do with the paper you cited.
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        According to https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Presentation19-The-RelationshipBetweenCarbonDioxideEmissionsandEconomicGrowth-MGrubbBMullerLButler-2004.pdf https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2011/0..., it seems that there is a positive correlation between GDP per capita and carbon emissions per capita at first, but the correlation stops after that and becomes neutral. In the UK and US, for example, carbon emissions per capita remained roughly constant over a 50 year period even as GDP per capita increased significantly.
        biglenny 8y ago
        Area under the curve.
        antidesitter 8y ago
        What do you mean?
cphoover 8y ago
Aren't you using a laptop/phone or something to type this comment on? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  This is the kind of problem that individual action cannot solve. It's well modeled by tragedy of the commons. Similarly I'd vote for banning slaughter of animals for meat, but in the meantime am not a full-time vegetarian any longer.
- biglenny 8y ago
  You got him bro!! If you don't like that mass industrialization and overpopulation costs us our planet and potentially our grandchildren's livelihoods, instead of using the most effective means to communicate your cause, go to Africa and live in the jungle!!!! epic
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > You got him bro!! If you don't like that mass industrialization and overpopulation costs us our planet and potentially our grandchildren's livelihoods, instead of using the most effective means to communicate your cause, go to Africa and live in the jungle!!!! epic Do you not see the hypocrisy in replying to someone like this while saying "Keep the dialogue civil"?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - geoka9 8y ago
    > overpopulation costs us ... our grandchildren's livelihoods Oh the irony :)
  - dang 8y ago
    If you continue to troll threads by tossing in flamebait, we're going to end up having to ban you. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Leary 8y ago
According to this, the greatest culprit isn't China. It's the industrial revolution.
bzbarsky 8y ago
"poverty" in this case is not "below the US poverty line". "poverty", when used in this context, means failure to satisfy the physiological layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: starvation, lack of decent shelter, disease, etc. The suffering from "poverty" in this sense is unimaginable to me. The fact that it's more or less hidden and not a big-ticket media item doesn't make it less of a humanitarian crisis or reduce the suffering involved. Or put another way, we're not talking about putting dollars in wallets. We're talking about putting food in children's mouths, clothes on their backs, roofs over their heads. Maybe even some education in those heads. Yes, I just used a "think of the children" argument, sorry.

spaceengineer 8y ago

And because of this government, tons of those people lost their jobs and had to go back to the rural farms, where they will go into extreme poverty again. The same government that made these people suffer through 40 years of pain, 70 years ago. It was American capital and knowledge that lifted these people out of extreme poverty.