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I've got to say, you're using a pretty wild definition of the word "abuse", as well as "hurting other people". How in the world does an ad hurt you? The close

I've got to say, you're using a pretty wild definition of the word "abuse", as well as "hurting other people". How in the world does an ad hurt you? The closest I can I think of is that there are some mobile games that use their ads as bludgeons to force you to buy their "remove all ads" in-app purchase, which, if I enjoy the game, I'm usually more than happy to buy, even if I resent a little being bullied. You could possibly stretch this to meet the definition of "abuse". I don't like ads, but it's a pretty big stretch to say that it is abuse. Are you talking about ads on the web or on television or in app in particular, or are you talking about print ads or billboards or radio ads as well? Certainly there are services which are borderline scams (and occasionally real scams) like multi-level marketing or snake oil goop, or games that arguably are designed to trick you into spending money on in-app purchases, but the fact that those services use ads does not taint ads, any more than the fact that people that work there use pencils mean that pencils are abuse.

LitFan 8y ago
The definition of abuse: use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. Advertising exists to get consumers to spend their money on a product they don't need (or a particular brand of a product they do need). The argument is that if they're inspiring you to give them your money for something you don't need (in most cases, tricking you into thinking you do need it) that's abuse.
- andrewla 8y ago
  Like I said, a pretty wild definition. Is it abuse if one of my coworkers buys a BMW? I mean, the intended use of a car is to drive, not to make me want to buy one for myself. By this definition, isn't selling a product that people don't need a worse offense? We should put all those toy manufacturers and restaurants and luxury car makers and fashion designers and barbers and perfume makers out of business. I'm just overreacting to a rhetorical device, I know. I don't like advertising, and I express that preference in by preferring no ads where possible, but rarely am I willing to pay money up front to remove them. My intolerance of ads is not unbounded; in most places my intolerance is worth less than a dollar. I don't think advertising is an issue that we need to address as a society. The particular issue of advertising in children's games is more of an annoyance than anything else -- my kids only activate ads accidentally and then have to come to me to figure out how to get out of the trap that the ad has led them into, since closing the ad can be tricky.
  - LitFan 8y ago
    Your coworker buying a BMW is not abuse, but BMW causing you to want to buy one through their marketing is. Selling a product is passive. Advertising that product is active. A company selling a product is not abuse. However, stores serve as advertisements for the products they sell. I would say that such stores - and the salespeople within them - are abusive. > my kids only activate ads accidentally and then have to come to me to figure out how to get out of the trap that the ad has led them into, since closing the ad can be tricky. Advertising aside, would you agree imposing a difficult to navigate user interface is abusive? I would.
  - jancsika 8y ago
    Ads that lead to a more expensive car is one thing. Ads that lead to a body image that increases the likelihood of health problems and early death is another. I think it's counterproductive to describe the very concept of advertising as abusive. Nevertheless, a large class of advertising as practiced on television, the web, and on mobile apps should be avoided. In many cases, I don't even have to venture into the realm of morality or ethics-- they just create such a bad UX (battery drain, autoplaying bullshit, interrupting content flow, double the perceived loudness of what I'm watching) that the only sensible thing for a human to do is remove ads altogether from their viewing/reading experience. It's possible to do that with only a modicum of effort, so that's what a lot of people like me will continuing doing.
    - OtterCoder 8y ago
      Cars represent $1.13 Trillion in consumer debt in the US on an asset that depreciates only slightly slower than fresh produce. Car debt contributes massively to the suppression of the middle class and is a burden many people take to their grave. Financial strain is a leading cause of divorce, and can often spur on depression, which has an immeasurable impact on both human lives and the economy at large. Cars too are oversold and abusively advertised. And it really is psychological abuse, with horrific outcomes.
- pwaivers 8y ago
  No you are conflating two different meanings of "abuse". The definition we should be talking about is: [verb] treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly. I believe that is what the parent comment is talking about.
  - geofft 8y ago
    There's a defensible argument that it is, in fact, cruel. It's just been normalized, which is a standard component of effective abuse. If you're in an abusive relationship (familial, romantic, employment, or whatever), it's pretty common to think this is how all such relationships work.
  - LitFan 8y ago
    You're correct, that definition is more appropriate. Companies abuse (misuse) their power over consumers. Consumers are abused by companies through marketing. I wholly agree with my sibling commenter that it is cruel for companies to market to us with the intent of separating us from our money.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
- ariwilson 8y ago
  We've reached peak HN, everyone: ads are abuse, breaking and entering, and rape. I guess we're lucky no one has compared them to murder. I feel bad if any actual victims of these horrific crimes are here; I imagine they wouldn't feel too good about this comparison.
  - wild_preference 8y ago
    I've been linking this comment thread to friends to have a chuckle. Ads = Abuse, Aggression, Rape! Yet ads pay for everything that every HNer is too stingy to take out their wallet for, which includes almost every website/service, especially every website smaller than the websites HN likes to hate on. It's like listening to people justify why they pirate media, crafting elaborate philosophical pieces when in reality they just don't like paying money for things.
SquishyPanda23 8y ago
> I've got to say, you're using a pretty wild definition of the word "abuse", as well as "hurting other people". How in the world does an ad hurt you? So, I realize this is a minority opinion, but this is close to how I feel, especially with respect to exposing my children to advertising. Advertising is almost always an attempt to emotionally manipulate people by lying to them. There are some exceptions, like a catalog that lists objective descriptions and prices. But virtually everything else falls under that description. Humans have the capability of reason, even though they're emotional naturally. Children, by definition, are still learning to use reason and logic and building effective habits. To expose children to a world of very smart adults trying to undermine their ability to reason or make good choices really is an act of aggression against children. Abuse is probably too strong, but it's definitely an aggression.
- salawat 8y ago
  No, don't backtrack. You hit the nail on the head. It is abuse. It is manipulation. It is deceit. Mendacity at it's most essential form. It's predating on a limited resource (attention) in an attempt to push out any other options by hooking you through as high a mental form of stimulation as possible. There is no need or excuse for that type of behavior. We just justify it because we've allowed an entire industry to spring up around it unchecked. Only halting that industry's ability to exploit unchecked in the most vulnerable populations after extraordinarily drawn out legal battles. Tobacco and alcohol are about the only two markets I can think if with explicitly constrained marketing practices. Gambling too, in terms of game design, which I still think is close enough in desired effect to be considered a marketing practice. Can marketing be a good thing? Yes! When the consumer is actively searching for it. In it's current form? It represents an unwanted, unwarranted invasion of privacy often foisted on users with no recourse.
  - number_six 8y ago
    Whenever I see people complaining about ads I commiserate. I worry about what happens as things like google glass actually become mainstream and I am always drawn back to this video that I think is a fairly realistic portrayal of what could be in the future: https://vimeo.com/166807261 https://vimeo.com/166807261 I have a three year old and he gets so absorbed in screen time and then he goes nuts whenever we tell him it's time to turn off the tv/phone/games. Within a couple of minutes he is usually much more relaxed and I am working to curb any usage that isn't during a road trip/flight.
freeflight 8y ago
> I don't like ads, but it's a pretty big stretch to say that it is abuse. Are you talking about ads on the web or on television or in app in particular, or are you talking about print ads or billboards or radio ads as well? I think he's talking about all of those and the "attention economy" they represent. Keeping up to date with what's relevant is already difficult enough, it only becomes more difficult if you got ad-interests constantly trying to perform tricks to steal your attention and time.
monochromatic 8y ago
It's manipulation of my emotions and invasion of my privacy to extract money from me. No, it's not done at the point of a gun. But it's still reprehensible.
r00fus 8y ago
I just re-read Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos and the analogies between the book's AI TechnoCore and today's Ad-tech industry seem very prescient.
celticninja 8y ago
Have a look at adverts for toys aimed at kids during children's programming.
quickthrower2 8y ago
Does causing fatal and debilitating diseases like obesity and diabetes count? Because there are ads selling high sugar and/or fat low nutrient foods to impressionable kids as 'fun'.

LitFan 8y ago

The definition of abuse: use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. Advertising exists to get consumers to spend their money on a product they don't need (or a particular brand of a product they do need). The argument is that if they're inspiring you to give them your money for something you don't need (in most cases, tricking you into thinking you do need it) that's abuse.

andrewla 8y ago
Like I said, a pretty wild definition. Is it abuse if one of my coworkers buys a BMW? I mean, the intended use of a car is to drive, not to make me want to buy one for myself. By this definition, isn't selling a product that people don't need a worse offense? We should put all those toy manufacturers and restaurants and luxury car makers and fashion designers and barbers and perfume makers out of business. I'm just overreacting to a rhetorical device, I know. I don't like advertising, and I express that preference in by preferring no ads where possible, but rarely am I willing to pay money up front to remove them. My intolerance of ads is not unbounded; in most places my intolerance is worth less than a dollar. I don't think advertising is an issue that we need to address as a society. The particular issue of advertising in children's games is more of an annoyance than anything else -- my kids only activate ads accidentally and then have to come to me to figure out how to get out of the trap that the ad has led them into, since closing the ad can be tricky.
- LitFan 8y ago
  Your coworker buying a BMW is not abuse, but BMW causing you to want to buy one through their marketing is. Selling a product is passive. Advertising that product is active. A company selling a product is not abuse. However, stores serve as advertisements for the products they sell. I would say that such stores - and the salespeople within them - are abusive. > my kids only activate ads accidentally and then have to come to me to figure out how to get out of the trap that the ad has led them into, since closing the ad can be tricky. Advertising aside, would you agree imposing a difficult to navigate user interface is abusive? I would.
- jancsika 8y ago
  Ads that lead to a more expensive car is one thing. Ads that lead to a body image that increases the likelihood of health problems and early death is another. I think it's counterproductive to describe the very concept of advertising as abusive. Nevertheless, a large class of advertising as practiced on television, the web, and on mobile apps should be avoided. In many cases, I don't even have to venture into the realm of morality or ethics-- they just create such a bad UX (battery drain, autoplaying bullshit, interrupting content flow, double the perceived loudness of what I'm watching) that the only sensible thing for a human to do is remove ads altogether from their viewing/reading experience. It's possible to do that with only a modicum of effort, so that's what a lot of people like me will continuing doing.
  - OtterCoder 8y ago
    Cars represent $1.13 Trillion in consumer debt in the US on an asset that depreciates only slightly slower than fresh produce. Car debt contributes massively to the suppression of the middle class and is a burden many people take to their grave. Financial strain is a leading cause of divorce, and can often spur on depression, which has an immeasurable impact on both human lives and the economy at large. Cars too are oversold and abusively advertised. And it really is psychological abuse, with horrific outcomes.
pwaivers 8y ago
No you are conflating two different meanings of "abuse". The definition we should be talking about is: [verb] treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly. I believe that is what the parent comment is talking about.
- geofft 8y ago
  There's a defensible argument that it is, in fact, cruel. It's just been normalized, which is a standard component of effective abuse. If you're in an abusive relationship (familial, romantic, employment, or whatever), it's pretty common to think this is how all such relationships work.
- LitFan 8y ago
  You're correct, that definition is more appropriate. Companies abuse (misuse) their power over consumers. Consumers are abused by companies through marketing. I wholly agree with my sibling commenter that it is cruel for companies to market to us with the intent of separating us from our money.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ariwilson 8y ago
We've reached peak HN, everyone: ads are abuse, breaking and entering, and rape. I guess we're lucky no one has compared them to murder. I feel bad if any actual victims of these horrific crimes are here; I imagine they wouldn't feel too good about this comparison.
- wild_preference 8y ago
  I've been linking this comment thread to friends to have a chuckle. Ads = Abuse, Aggression, Rape! Yet ads pay for everything that every HNer is too stingy to take out their wallet for, which includes almost every website/service, especially every website smaller than the websites HN likes to hate on. It's like listening to people justify why they pirate media, crafting elaborate philosophical pieces when in reality they just don't like paying money for things.

SquishyPanda23 8y ago

> I've got to say, you're using a pretty wild definition of the word "abuse", as well as "hurting other people". How in the world does an ad hurt you? So, I realize this is a minority opinion, but this is close to how I feel, especially with respect to exposing my children to advertising. Advertising is almost always an attempt to emotionally manipulate people by lying to them. There are some exceptions, like a catalog that lists objective descriptions and prices. But virtually everything else falls under that description. Humans have the capability of reason, even though they're emotional naturally. Children, by definition, are still learning to use reason and logic and building effective habits. To expose children to a world of very smart adults trying to undermine their ability to reason or make good choices really is an act of aggression against children. Abuse is probably too strong, but it's definitely an aggression.

salawat 8y ago
No, don't backtrack. You hit the nail on the head. It is abuse. It is manipulation. It is deceit. Mendacity at it's most essential form. It's predating on a limited resource (attention) in an attempt to push out any other options by hooking you through as high a mental form of stimulation as possible. There is no need or excuse for that type of behavior. We just justify it because we've allowed an entire industry to spring up around it unchecked. Only halting that industry's ability to exploit unchecked in the most vulnerable populations after extraordinarily drawn out legal battles. Tobacco and alcohol are about the only two markets I can think if with explicitly constrained marketing practices. Gambling too, in terms of game design, which I still think is close enough in desired effect to be considered a marketing practice. Can marketing be a good thing? Yes! When the consumer is actively searching for it. In it's current form? It represents an unwanted, unwarranted invasion of privacy often foisted on users with no recourse.
- number_six 8y ago
  Whenever I see people complaining about ads I commiserate. I worry about what happens as things like google glass actually become mainstream and I am always drawn back to this video that I think is a fairly realistic portrayal of what could be in the future: https://vimeo.com/166807261 https://vimeo.com/166807261 I have a three year old and he gets so absorbed in screen time and then he goes nuts whenever we tell him it's time to turn off the tv/phone/games. Within a couple of minutes he is usually much more relaxed and I am working to curb any usage that isn't during a road trip/flight.

freeflight 8y ago

> I don't like ads, but it's a pretty big stretch to say that it is abuse. Are you talking about ads on the web or on television or in app in particular, or are you talking about print ads or billboards or radio ads as well? I think he's talking about all of those and the "attention economy" they represent. Keeping up to date with what's relevant is already difficult enough, it only becomes more difficult if you got ad-interests constantly trying to perform tricks to steal your attention and time.

monochromatic 8y ago

It's manipulation of my emotions and invasion of my privacy to extract money from me. No, it's not done at the point of a gun. But it's still reprehensible.

r00fus 8y ago

I just re-read Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos and the analogies between the book's AI TechnoCore and today's Ad-tech industry seem very prescient.

celticninja 8y ago

Have a look at adverts for toys aimed at kids during children's programming.

quickthrower2 8y ago

Does causing fatal and debilitating diseases like obesity and diabetes count? Because there are ads selling high sugar and/or fat low nutrient foods to impressionable kids as 'fun'.