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Ok so erm... we all know what to expect when an amazon article hits HN. Amazon has devolved. Counterfeits. Fake reviews. Crap quality.... IDK if this is true.

Ok so erm... we all know what to expect when an amazon article hits HN. Amazon has devolved. Counterfeits. Fake reviews. Crap quality.... IDK if this is true. That is, IDK if amazon's meaningfully worse than traditional big department stores or the brick-and-mortar sector generally. But, say it's true. Amazon has jumped the shark. This is HN. This isn't the place for customer complaints. It's the place to hatch plans to kill amazon. What's the bridgehead (à la pg) to a full-scale invasion of amazon territory? Reviews? Some product subset? Discovery? How would you build the company that replaces amazon?

Brushfire 8y ago
Curation. If the Wirecutter had a store, I'd use it. Instead they just link off to Amazon.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >If the Wirecutter had a store, I'd use it I would once too. Then I found out this "curation" ain't that well curated... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16729408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16729408 https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to-play-model https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to...
  - Brushfire 8y ago
    Sure, the Wirecutter is just an example. You probably need a membership model that people pay for, that also grants them the Amazon prime shipping benefits and covers the cost of reviews etc...
- luddaite 8y ago
  Isn't this approach that merchants such as Massdrop are taking? They have a small number of product categories that are heavily curated by the staff and the users.
kurthr 8y ago
I assume this is tech-shaming... some giant product owned by the (second?) richest person in the world has some obvious flaws. Trying to embarrass Amazon into fixing it (like Facebook, Twitter, et al) by buying one of the addons services that prevent blatant abuse is a strategy... and possibly a profitable one both as a customer and acquiree.
echelon 8y ago
Can you beat Amazon at this point? If Amazon sees a threat, they can easily use their pricing power to force it out of business. They don't mind losing money as a means to pressure competition. I think you'd need to play a different game altogether if you wanted to carve a new niche. What that looks like, I'm not sure. Maybe a shopping site that builds carts across various retailers and orders from the least expensive?
- beatgammit 8y ago
  Everything can be beaten. Wal-Mart is now offering free 2-day shipping (min purchase, but no membership fee), and I wouldn't be surprised to see stiff competition as drone regulation loosens. As Amazon gets into more sectors, competition will increase. I don't think that will kill Amazon, but a big breach or other bad press could be enough to get people to move to alternatives, especially if those alternatives have become more competitive. I don't think startups can compete until larger businesses threaten Amazon (Costco, Wal-Mart, CVS, Target, etc).
- swsieber 8y ago
  Amazon will help you beat Amazon: increasing prices (both for products and the prime membership), fake reviews, and counterfeit products.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Amazon has higher prices on a lot of things now, and most local places will match Amazon. You also risk getting a fake product, and their product selection is poor at best now. Shipping has been extremely iffy and unreliable for months now. I cancelled Prime and haven't noticed any loss. I tried ordering angled cutting pliers for cutting excess legs off of my PCB's when soldering, and other than Hakko which was an add-on item so I couldn't buy it unless I wanted 3 of them, most other brands were cheap Chinese trash. I've had 34/35 items arrive from Aliexpress in the last month from Cambodia, China, and Russia. One was mis-delivered by USPS in USA. Amazon can't deliver correctly to the Whole Foods 1/4 mile from their HQ.
- dvlsg 8y ago
  > Maybe a shopping site that builds carts across various retailers and orders from the least expensive? Sounds like pcpartpicker. Which is, of course, only relevant if you're trying to buy parts for a pc. Great service though (not affiliated in any way, just a happy user).
ardy42 8y ago
> IDK if amazon's meaningfully worse than traditional big department stores or the brick-and-mortar sector generally. They are meaningfully worse. "Traditional big department stores and the brick-and-mortar sector generally" have much more control over their supply chains than Amazon does. Physical shelf space is too valuable to let every random fly-by-night fake-review-fueled company use it. There's also the legal liability that comes with having a real address in a jurisdiction where it's likely you'll be held accountable. For the above reasons, you're much less likely to find fake and counterfeit products at a brick and mortar store than on Amazon. > What's the bridgehead (à la pg) to a full-scale invasion of amazon territory? Well-deserved reputational damage that motivates consumers to look for and consider alternatives.
- fhood 8y ago
  Not to mention the last time I needed a specific dongle, it had 5 stars and thousands of review.....but the reviews were clearly for a different product.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  > They are meaningfully worse. "Traditional big department stores and the brick-and-mortar sector generally" have much more control over their supply chains than Amazon does. Physical shelf space is too valuable to let every random fly-by-night fake-review-fueled company use it. There's also the legal liability that comes with having a real address in a jurisdiction where it's likely you'll be held accountable. This is less true than ever, as more big box stores expand their online offerings with third-party sellers.
- rpdillon 8y ago
  I haven't found this to be true at all. Brick-and-mortar stores _always_ have less selection, and I have no idea wandering around the store if a product is actually any good. When I do bother to try and buy something at a brick-and-mortar store and I research what they are actually carrying, it's often got horrible reviews, not just on Amazon, but on other product review sites. While I agree that Amazon products aren't always the best, my experience with brick and mortar is _far_ worse. Except Costco. Costco is amazing, IMHO.
endymi0n 8y ago
Had a thought about it the other day. I think the easiest way forward would be a full scale attack on the quality side. There's a lot of people who wouldn't mind paying a few bucks more for something that's actually _good_. Get a subset of players on board, try to own a niche they're weak in (like Amazon started out with books) and then rigorously throw anything out that doesn't adhere to the platform's standards - the USP is that whatever you buy, it's stellar, and then you start getting exclusive deals and dry Amazon out (because a lot of sellers are tired of them too). Makes for some good PR, as everyone should be able to relate to that story. Unfortunately, it's really hard entering a two sided market with an established player as big as Amazon and will probably take lots of capital. Maybe it's actually easier to pivot one of the remaining e-commerce giants into that kind of company.
- comboy 8y ago
  Sounds good but is this different from a site that does product reviews? Amazon does shipping and customer support which is hard and the only difference between quality store and quality reviews site seem to be one click more when buying.
- dwyerm 8y ago
  Yeah, but you need to hit the convenience side, too. Shopping on Amazon is really easy. They already have all my info, and seem to be trustworthy enough to hold it. A few nights ago, I was looking for very specific LED strips -- no waterproofing, black PCB, warm white LEDs, etc. Amazon couldn't help me, or at least, I couldn't find the item with high confidence that I'd actually get the right item after the 3 months of slow-boat China shipping. I ended up branching out to a bunch of local 'warehouses', which are I think what you're describing: Local stores that stock and sell a small number of items that they stand behind. I passed on every single one I found because of their terrible websites, filled with popups and chat windows, and the scourge of early ecommerce: "contact us for pricing!" This is before I ever had to enter an address and credit card number to actually buy anything. I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Use Amazon for what they're good at and what makes them good for your customers, but build a brand with its own trustworthiness that exists outside of Amazon. It is something like SDCardholder.com that sells what I feel is the best card holder in the world. They have a storefront, but they use Amazon for their cart and warehouse. Monoprice has been the best place to get cables for years. I've purchased from them from both Amazon and their own storefront. Or Anker and Aukey, who have made brands around "reasonably-priced chargers that probably won't burst into flames and kill your family." Recently, I've been getting a lot of boxes from Walmart.com after ordering from Amazon.com... and I'm okay with that. Because I didn't have to open an account with Walmart.com, but I still got the products that I wanted and a price I was okay with. So, quality is VERY important, but don't forget about convenience.
mbesto 8y ago
“There are two ways to make money in business: You can unbundle, or you can bundle.” Amazon bundled, so its killer will unbundle. Amazon's killer will be: 1. Brands/manufacturers going to direct to consumer on their own e-commerce platforms 2. Niche vertical sites that have hyperfocus on domain expertise Wanna be a betting man? Put your money in E-comm platforms and services.
- samfisher83 8y ago
  That is what alibaba and ebay do. Even Amazon does that. They act as a distribution service for fulfilled by amazon products.
  - mbesto 8y ago
    That's called bundling.
beamatronic 8y ago
I just go to the Wirecutter.
Regardsyjc 8y ago
I've been selling on Amazon for two years now. When I went to the Boost with FBA conference last year, they said their goal was to be global. Their vision is that no matter where you live in the world, you can order whatever you want, and have it delivered with Prime shipping. Thus a global marketplace for consumers. They're already in Canada, US, Mexico, Europe, Japan, China, used to be in India, and building more fulfillment centers in Israel and more. Amazon is also rolling out their Amazon Basics and secret private label brands under different names. I read somewhere their private label brands alone did a couple billion in sales. Every Amazon seller knows that if you make a great product, Amazon will compete with you eventually. They utilize an 80/20 rule. They sell the top 20% of products on their marketplace that make up 80% of the sales. I don't know how accurate this information or numbers are, but I heard from a VP who helped build the marketplace from the beginning, so I trust his insight. Amazon did not start out this way from the beginning. They started as resellers themselves, then started private labeling, and I am going to bet that they will eventually start manufacturing themselves with their own factories if they haven't already. Bezos wants to build rockets so I'm sure Amazon could build their own products too if they wanted to. I could be completely wrong about this but it would be the next rational jump. Amazon is great at ruthless efficient systems so being able to own something where they could guarantee quality and lower costs seems obvious. So far it seems they have been working on relentlessly cutting out the middle man they initially partnered with whether it was the first resellers they added to their marketplace, UPS, etc. Another example of this is how Amazon ruthlessly uses the data of sellers on their marketplace against them. They pretty much let third party Amazon sellers do all the testing for them and they can just take action on the best opportunities by simply looking at the data. Every time a brand sells something on Amazon, you're pretty much giving your business and customer data on a golden platter to Amazon. Amazon's algorithm loves outside traffic. Their beast needs to be fed. Sorry for the long ramble but the point is that I think Amazon's end goal of global marketplace is achievable if you keep in mind the 80/20 rule. Amazon's marketplace might have millions of products but if 80% of the revenue comes from only 20% of the selection then fulfillment is a lot more manageable. Amazon might seem to be a behemoth but they are having a lot of issues right now. Their fulfillment centers aren't perfect. They are losing customer trust. Retailers pretty much hate them. Amazon sellers would get off the Amazon marketplace in a heartbeat if they could make more money on another marketplace. Many sellers I know are always diversifying, selling on Walmart, Ebay, and their own stores. They're only on Amazon because that's where the customers are for the time being. For those that think Amazon is unbeatable, ecommerce shifts quickly. Ebay used to be the bees knees years ago and look where they are now. There are still new technologies that are being developed that will change the way people shop. Alibaba is light years ahead of shopping than Amazon. Just look at all their promotional videos. They built a fully functioning Amazon Go store way before Amazon. In this sense, Asia is leading the way. Amazon might be dominating the American marketplace right now but they are not winning in other countries. There is still a race. Amazon failed in India and they're locked out of China. Amazon has fat pockets but I don't think they're unbeatable. I heard there might be a stealth startup trying to take on Amazon. If anyone wants to put my esoteric knowledge to use, I'd love to talk. It's one of the weird things I might be good at so I love building or testing my Amazon knowledge. There's not that many people I can talk to about Amazon on this level so if anyone can push my thinking, I'd appreciate it. I'm colleagues with people on all levels of the Amazon marketplace ecosystem from sellers to agencies to software founders but they tend to be laser focused on their circle of expertise.

Brushfire 8y ago

Curation. If the Wirecutter had a store, I'd use it. Instead they just link off to Amazon.

coldtea 8y ago
>If the Wirecutter had a store, I'd use it I would once too. Then I found out this "curation" ain't that well curated... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16729408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16729408 https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to-play-model https://www.xdesk.com/wirecutter-standing-desk-review-pay-to...
- Brushfire 8y ago
  Sure, the Wirecutter is just an example. You probably need a membership model that people pay for, that also grants them the Amazon prime shipping benefits and covers the cost of reviews etc...
luddaite 8y ago
Isn't this approach that merchants such as Massdrop are taking? They have a small number of product categories that are heavily curated by the staff and the users.

kurthr 8y ago

I assume this is tech-shaming... some giant product owned by the (second?) richest person in the world has some obvious flaws. Trying to embarrass Amazon into fixing it (like Facebook, Twitter, et al) by buying one of the addons services that prevent blatant abuse is a strategy... and possibly a profitable one both as a customer and acquiree.

echelon 8y ago

Can you beat Amazon at this point? If Amazon sees a threat, they can easily use their pricing power to force it out of business. They don't mind losing money as a means to pressure competition. I think you'd need to play a different game altogether if you wanted to carve a new niche. What that looks like, I'm not sure. Maybe a shopping site that builds carts across various retailers and orders from the least expensive?

beatgammit 8y ago
Everything can be beaten. Wal-Mart is now offering free 2-day shipping (min purchase, but no membership fee), and I wouldn't be surprised to see stiff competition as drone regulation loosens. As Amazon gets into more sectors, competition will increase. I don't think that will kill Amazon, but a big breach or other bad press could be enough to get people to move to alternatives, especially if those alternatives have become more competitive. I don't think startups can compete until larger businesses threaten Amazon (Costco, Wal-Mart, CVS, Target, etc).
swsieber 8y ago
Amazon will help you beat Amazon: increasing prices (both for products and the prime membership), fake reviews, and counterfeit products.
prolikewh0a 8y ago
Amazon has higher prices on a lot of things now, and most local places will match Amazon. You also risk getting a fake product, and their product selection is poor at best now. Shipping has been extremely iffy and unreliable for months now. I cancelled Prime and haven't noticed any loss. I tried ordering angled cutting pliers for cutting excess legs off of my PCB's when soldering, and other than Hakko which was an add-on item so I couldn't buy it unless I wanted 3 of them, most other brands were cheap Chinese trash. I've had 34/35 items arrive from Aliexpress in the last month from Cambodia, China, and Russia. One was mis-delivered by USPS in USA. Amazon can't deliver correctly to the Whole Foods 1/4 mile from their HQ.
dvlsg 8y ago
> Maybe a shopping site that builds carts across various retailers and orders from the least expensive? Sounds like pcpartpicker. Which is, of course, only relevant if you're trying to buy parts for a pc. Great service though (not affiliated in any way, just a happy user).

ardy42 8y ago

> IDK if amazon's meaningfully worse than traditional big department stores or the brick-and-mortar sector generally. They are meaningfully worse. "Traditional big department stores and the brick-and-mortar sector generally" have much more control over their supply chains than Amazon does. Physical shelf space is too valuable to let every random fly-by-night fake-review-fueled company use it. There's also the legal liability that comes with having a real address in a jurisdiction where it's likely you'll be held accountable. For the above reasons, you're much less likely to find fake and counterfeit products at a brick and mortar store than on Amazon. > What's the bridgehead (à la pg) to a full-scale invasion of amazon territory? Well-deserved reputational damage that motivates consumers to look for and consider alternatives.

fhood 8y ago
Not to mention the last time I needed a specific dongle, it had 5 stars and thousands of review.....but the reviews were clearly for a different product.
zdragnar 8y ago
> They are meaningfully worse. "Traditional big department stores and the brick-and-mortar sector generally" have much more control over their supply chains than Amazon does. Physical shelf space is too valuable to let every random fly-by-night fake-review-fueled company use it. There's also the legal liability that comes with having a real address in a jurisdiction where it's likely you'll be held accountable. This is less true than ever, as more big box stores expand their online offerings with third-party sellers.
rpdillon 8y ago
I haven't found this to be true at all. Brick-and-mortar stores _always_ have less selection, and I have no idea wandering around the store if a product is actually any good. When I do bother to try and buy something at a brick-and-mortar store and I research what they are actually carrying, it's often got horrible reviews, not just on Amazon, but on other product review sites. While I agree that Amazon products aren't always the best, my experience with brick and mortar is _far_ worse. Except Costco. Costco is amazing, IMHO.

endymi0n 8y ago

Had a thought about it the other day. I think the easiest way forward would be a full scale attack on the quality side. There's a lot of people who wouldn't mind paying a few bucks more for something that's actually _good_. Get a subset of players on board, try to own a niche they're weak in (like Amazon started out with books) and then rigorously throw anything out that doesn't adhere to the platform's standards - the USP is that whatever you buy, it's stellar, and then you start getting exclusive deals and dry Amazon out (because a lot of sellers are tired of them too). Makes for some good PR, as everyone should be able to relate to that story. Unfortunately, it's really hard entering a two sided market with an established player as big as Amazon and will probably take lots of capital. Maybe it's actually easier to pivot one of the remaining e-commerce giants into that kind of company.

comboy 8y ago
Sounds good but is this different from a site that does product reviews? Amazon does shipping and customer support which is hard and the only difference between quality store and quality reviews site seem to be one click more when buying.
dwyerm 8y ago
Yeah, but you need to hit the convenience side, too. Shopping on Amazon is really easy. They already have all my info, and seem to be trustworthy enough to hold it. A few nights ago, I was looking for very specific LED strips -- no waterproofing, black PCB, warm white LEDs, etc. Amazon couldn't help me, or at least, I couldn't find the item with high confidence that I'd actually get the right item after the 3 months of slow-boat China shipping. I ended up branching out to a bunch of local 'warehouses', which are I think what you're describing: Local stores that stock and sell a small number of items that they stand behind. I passed on every single one I found because of their terrible websites, filled with popups and chat windows, and the scourge of early ecommerce: "contact us for pricing!" This is before I ever had to enter an address and credit card number to actually buy anything. I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Use Amazon for what they're good at and what makes them good for your customers, but build a brand with its own trustworthiness that exists outside of Amazon. It is something like SDCardholder.com that sells what I feel is the best card holder in the world. They have a storefront, but they use Amazon for their cart and warehouse. Monoprice has been the best place to get cables for years. I've purchased from them from both Amazon and their own storefront. Or Anker and Aukey, who have made brands around "reasonably-priced chargers that probably won't burst into flames and kill your family." Recently, I've been getting a lot of boxes from Walmart.com after ordering from Amazon.com... and I'm okay with that. Because I didn't have to open an account with Walmart.com, but I still got the products that I wanted and a price I was okay with. So, quality is VERY important, but don't forget about convenience.

mbesto 8y ago

“There are two ways to make money in business: You can unbundle, or you can bundle.” Amazon bundled, so its killer will unbundle. Amazon's killer will be: 1. Brands/manufacturers going to direct to consumer on their own e-commerce platforms 2. Niche vertical sites that have hyperfocus on domain expertise Wanna be a betting man? Put your money in E-comm platforms and services.

samfisher83 8y ago
That is what alibaba and ebay do. Even Amazon does that. They act as a distribution service for fulfilled by amazon products.
- mbesto 8y ago
  That's called bundling.

beamatronic 8y ago

I just go to the Wirecutter.

Regardsyjc 8y ago

I've been selling on Amazon for two years now. When I went to the Boost with FBA conference last year, they said their goal was to be global. Their vision is that no matter where you live in the world, you can order whatever you want, and have it delivered with Prime shipping. Thus a global marketplace for consumers. They're already in Canada, US, Mexico, Europe, Japan, China, used to be in India, and building more fulfillment centers in Israel and more. Amazon is also rolling out their Amazon Basics and secret private label brands under different names. I read somewhere their private label brands alone did a couple billion in sales. Every Amazon seller knows that if you make a great product, Amazon will compete with you eventually. They utilize an 80/20 rule. They sell the top 20% of products on their marketplace that make up 80% of the sales. I don't know how accurate this information or numbers are, but I heard from a VP who helped build the marketplace from the beginning, so I trust his insight. Amazon did not start out this way from the beginning. They started as resellers themselves, then started private labeling, and I am going to bet that they will eventually start manufacturing themselves with their own factories if they haven't already. Bezos wants to build rockets so I'm sure Amazon could build their own products too if they wanted to. I could be completely wrong about this but it would be the next rational jump. Amazon is great at ruthless efficient systems so being able to own something where they could guarantee quality and lower costs seems obvious. So far it seems they have been working on relentlessly cutting out the middle man they initially partnered with whether it was the first resellers they added to their marketplace, UPS, etc. Another example of this is how Amazon ruthlessly uses the data of sellers on their marketplace against them. They pretty much let third party Amazon sellers do all the testing for them and they can just take action on the best opportunities by simply looking at the data. Every time a brand sells something on Amazon, you're pretty much giving your business and customer data on a golden platter to Amazon. Amazon's algorithm loves outside traffic. Their beast needs to be fed. Sorry for the long ramble but the point is that I think Amazon's end goal of global marketplace is achievable if you keep in mind the 80/20 rule. Amazon's marketplace might have millions of products but if 80% of the revenue comes from only 20% of the selection then fulfillment is a lot more manageable. Amazon might seem to be a behemoth but they are having a lot of issues right now. Their fulfillment centers aren't perfect. They are losing customer trust. Retailers pretty much hate them. Amazon sellers would get off the Amazon marketplace in a heartbeat if they could make more money on another marketplace. Many sellers I know are always diversifying, selling on Walmart, Ebay, and their own stores. They're only on Amazon because that's where the customers are for the time being. For those that think Amazon is unbeatable, ecommerce shifts quickly. Ebay used to be the bees knees years ago and look where they are now. There are still new technologies that are being developed that will change the way people shop. Alibaba is light years ahead of shopping than Amazon. Just look at all their promotional videos. They built a fully functioning Amazon Go store way before Amazon. In this sense, Asia is leading the way. Amazon might be dominating the American marketplace right now but they are not winning in other countries. There is still a race. Amazon failed in India and they're locked out of China. Amazon has fat pockets but I don't think they're unbeatable. I heard there might be a stealth startup trying to take on Amazon. If anyone wants to put my esoteric knowledge to use, I'd love to talk. It's one of the weird things I might be good at so I love building or testing my Amazon knowledge. There's not that many people I can talk to about Amazon on this level so if anyone can push my thinking, I'd appreciate it. I'm colleagues with people on all levels of the Amazon marketplace ecosystem from sellers to agencies to software founders but they tend to be laser focused on their circle of expertise.