3 ms·

Yes you can do stuff more easily if you control all parts of the network. That doesn't mean we have to give up on standards based messaging just because it is h

Yes you can do stuff more easily if you control all parts of the network. That doesn't mean we have to give up on standards based messaging just because it is harder. In the long run silo based systems are more work because you have to reinvent everything every time you create the next entirely incompatible system. If that system doesn't catch on then you have to reinvent everything again and again until you get lucky. This feature is an example of what happens when you don't solve the meta data properly in the first place. It doesn't really work that well but unless Signal starts routing through something like Tor (a system they don't and can't control) they are stuck with half measures.

tptacek 8y ago
The Signal team essentially invented the cryptographic constructions the current wave of (good) secure messengers are based on, work for which they were awarded the Levchin Prize at RWC (for perspective, this year's winner was Hugo Krawczyk). They did the work, then published it, for the other messaging systems to adopt --- which is why you can easily get a comparable, though inferior, version of Signal's cryptography in a messenger that doesn't require phone numbers. At some point in the future maybe the roles will reverse there, and interoperability will be a bigger issue. For now, I think Signal's userbase is benefiting from the decision. If it became necessary, presumably they can alter their stance in the future.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  > which is why you can easily get a comparable, though inferior, version of Signal's cryptography in a messenger that doesn't require phone numbers. How so? Are things like OMEMO different cryptographically from Signal protocol?
  - agnokapathetic 8y ago
    OMEMO just implements the Double Ratchet Algorithm that Perin and Marlinspike created for Signal as an XMPP extension. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm
tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
On the other hand, Signal works. Messages get delivered and phone calls get established. All the open/interoperable solutions that I found were sufficiently broken that I no longer use them, since it felt like I was spending more time debugging them than actually communicating.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  +1. Even my mom and dad use Signal. Like, use it. Not can use it. They use it.

tptacek 8y ago

The Signal team essentially invented the cryptographic constructions the current wave of (good) secure messengers are based on, work for which they were awarded the Levchin Prize at RWC (for perspective, this year's winner was Hugo Krawczyk). They did the work, then published it, for the other messaging systems to adopt --- which is why you can easily get a comparable, though inferior, version of Signal's cryptography in a messenger that doesn't require phone numbers. At some point in the future maybe the roles will reverse there, and interoperability will be a bigger issue. For now, I think Signal's userbase is benefiting from the decision. If it became necessary, presumably they can alter their stance in the future.

joecool1029 8y ago
> which is why you can easily get a comparable, though inferior, version of Signal's cryptography in a messenger that doesn't require phone numbers. How so? Are things like OMEMO different cryptographically from Signal protocol?
- agnokapathetic 8y ago
  OMEMO just implements the Double Ratchet Algorithm that Perin and Marlinspike created for Signal as an XMPP extension. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm

tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago

On the other hand, Signal works. Messages get delivered and phone calls get established. All the open/interoperable solutions that I found were sufficiently broken that I no longer use them, since it felt like I was spending more time debugging them than actually communicating.

killjoywashere 8y ago
+1. Even my mom and dad use Signal. Like, use it. Not can use it. They use it.