7 ms·

Anecdotal obviously, but I'm surprised at how pervasive the "Facebook listens to your conversations through the app" rumors are, even among the more technically

Anecdotal obviously, but I'm surprised at how pervasive the "Facebook listens to your conversations through the app" rumors are, even among the more technically literate. I'm curious how much of an effect that rumor had on this finding.

holtalanm 8y ago
no effect for me, personally. my reasons for deleting the app and halting usage of facebook was entirely based on the plethora of toxic/useless content that just made me want to punch most of my friends in the face.
- thelasthuman 8y ago
  It's hard for some people to be a portrait of themselves. It's much easier to reflect the world around you. When you're alone on Facebook it's easier to be yourself, and for some it's not a pretty picture.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  I recall someone posting on Reddit: Facebook = Friends and family pissing me off Reddit = Strangers amusing me
  - artursapek 8y ago
    Hah that's perfect. I hope reddit never lets themselves ruin that for some ad money.
Symbiote 8y ago
I wouldn't particularly discourage the rumor. The app has enough permissions that when coupled with Facebook's data analytics it amounts to a similar invasion of privacy.
- dymk 8y ago
  > I wouldn't particularly discourage the rumor. You might as well just admit to encouraging disinformation campaigns against things you don't personally like.
  - eiaoa 8y ago
    It's not really disinformation, just a slight inaccuracy. For years they were collecting text messages and call logs: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb... Not quite "listening to calls," but not too different either. It shows you where their heart is.
    - dymk 8y ago
      The claim was not that they were listening to calls (which they also directly claim they don't do, according to your article), it was that Facebook listens to you through the app. They've also explicitly stated they don't do that, as well.
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    Your friend's friend says the Facebook app tracks conversations. Do you a) Vaguely agree that Facebook is awful, and removing the app is a good idea, b) Start explaining how a detailed log of every app user's location, time spent reading each story, typing speed, searches, lists of other apps used (or in use), full lists of contacts, calendar events, text messages, phone call history, photographs, nearby WiFi networks and battery statistics can be combined with website-based Facebook use and tracking cookies on other sites, allowing Facebook to create a detailed profile of each user, and that's why they showed the creepily-relevant advert. I would usually choose (a), unless the discussion is specifically about data privacy. (b) is not literally listening, but it's close enough for a casual discussion.
    - dymk 8y ago
      Er, I wouldn't choose either. If a friend asked me if Facebook tracks conversations, I'd just give it to them straight from the horse's mouth: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-phones-microphone-for-ads-or-news-feed-stories/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-ph...
randyrand 8y ago
Do they not use your conversations for targeted ads? This is news to me, and surprising.
- wgerard 8y ago
  While anything's possible, it would be pretty shocking if Facebook figured out how to, on iOS (I can't speak for Android): * Record audio if the app's killed completely * Record audio with microphone permission disabled * etc. All of which have been claimed. The far more likely scenario is that we're much more predictable than we think. Remember the target controversy when they figured out a teenage girl was pregnant before she had told her parents [1]? That happened in 2012. Imagine how much more advanced things have become since then. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/#259f6bd56668 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...
  - randyrand 8y ago
    I was talking about the messenger texting app
    - Splines 8y ago
      I don't know why this got downvoted, while the question "does FB listen in on you" may not have a definitive answer, the answer to the question "does FB messenger look at your conversation text" is "yes": http://time.com/money/5227844/facebook-reviews-private-messages/ http://time.com/money/5227844/facebook-reviews-private-messa... Does it use your private messages for advertising? It seems like "no" for now, but nothing is stopping them.
rchaud 8y ago
This came up (albeit regarding Instagram ads) at a Seattle conference I was at a couple of weeks ago. It was during a talk about the future of video ads. An FB engineer was one of the panelists, so an audience member relayed a story of him having a conversation about a product with a friend, and then seeing an ad for that exact product in his Instagram timeline.
- Camillo 8y ago
  Well, what was the response?
  - aluminussoma 8y ago
    This is the official Facebook response on using your microphone: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-phones-microphone-for-ads-or-news-feed-stories/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-ph... According to that, they do not listen for ads.
esotericn 8y ago
Why do you find that surprising? The fact of the matter is, the company's modus operandi is to collect as much information from you as possible. Their business model is spyware. Whether the application currently records conversations or not is almost immaterial. You know that if they could get away with it, they would.
ashelmire 8y ago
Whether or not they are actually listening to conversations, the effect is the same; ads that are way too personal. I suspect they have much more information than what we tell them, and I mean raw data, not what's derived from collaborative filtering or other techniques. I wonder if our ISPs, streaming services, banks, visa, etc, share data. Maybe it's just the trackers all over the internet. Getting ads for a specific product the day after discussing it in person could be luck... or not.
- wgerard 8y ago
  > I suspect they have much more information than what we tell them, and I mean raw data, not what's derived from collaborative filtering or other techniques. I wonder if our ISPs, streaming services, banks, visa, etc, share data. Maybe it's just the trackers all over the internet. They absolutely do. You should download your FB data, if you have an account. It's basically a list of everywhere you've shopped/been/etc. 95% of it you likely didn't share intentionally. It's quite shocking.
  - macintux 8y ago
    If I'm ever forced to use Facebook via a web browser, which is rare, I make sure to open it in a private window and immediately sign out. That, and I don't allow the app to know my location, or have access to my photos. That limits the damage to a significant degree.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
rigged-system 8y ago
I have seen this first hand. At one point, I think I had figured this out because I the Facebook app had access to "Siri results", and "Siri results" is just about anything you do on your phone. We turned off Siri results, but we would still be discussing something out loud like "maybe we should go to Bali some day" and lo and behold, my wife would see ads for Bali in her Facebook stream within 1-2 hours.
- rigged-system 8y ago
  I want to add one more thing. The ads weren't just for a travel destination. It would be something totally out of character for us like "Let's build a tree house and rent in out on AirBnb" and there would be ads for renting out tree houses.
  - mulmen 8y ago
    Sure but did you have any other interaction with the internet about these topics? Did you search Google for tree house building codes? Did you search Pinterest or Instagram for ideas? I have heard this anecdote many times but I don't believe Facebook is actually recording everything we say. Mostly because I don't think our phones have that kind of battery life. I do think they have data on essentially everything you do online.
    - softawre 8y ago
      Another common one is credit card data. If you buy a special razor at Kroger, expect to see ads about mangroomer on FB.
    - cknoxrun 8y ago
      I wonder if it is also possible they associate you with searches your friends have done after being in the same location? So if you chat about going to Bali with your friends or co-workers, and one of them searches for Bali flights, they then display Bali ads to the entire group.
      - 8y ago
forgottenpass 8y ago
When anyone technically inclined tries to explain the difference, laypeople just hear a lawyer saying: "Well, they don't do exactly that, but they do the entire list of other things you could ever brainstorm that are in the same class as that. And a dozen more gross things you are just learning exist as part of this clarification."
eiaoa 8y ago
> Anecdotal obviously, but I'm surprised at how pervasive the "Facebook listens to your conversations through the app" rumors are, even among the more technically literate. They were slurping up text massages and collecting call logs, IIRC. So the rumor isn't too far from the truth. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb...
lostgame 8y ago
I’m curious as to whether it’s a rumour. I’m an iOS developer, and I know how difficult and seemingly implausible these rumours are, but the causal evidence to the contrary I’ve experienced is too ‘Black Mirror’ for my liking, or others. I have troubles convincing myself it’s not true because it just happens on an almost bi-daily basis - it’s too accurate and it regularly involves things either my friends or I have definitively not typed but only spoken about. It’s creepy as hell.
- kickopotomus 8y ago
  Are you sure that your friends haven't searched for whatever FB suggested? Perhaps not even the exact thing but something similar or associated (e.g. searched for dog treats, sees ads for dog beds)? Have you visited a place that sells that thing with location services enabled? Do your friends express a lot of interest in the things advertised (posts, pictures, comments on any FB platform)? Do you spend a decent amount of time with these friends? What about other people that use the same home/work networks that you do? Being able to accurately predict what you might be interested in, or at least interested enough to click on is how FB makes their money. That is where a bulk of their R&D spend goes. Couple that with the fact that humans are creatures of habit and relatively predictable, and you can end up with the notion that FB or Google must be listening in on everything you are saying.
  - lostgame 8y ago
    > Are you sure that your friends haven't searched for whatever FB suggested? Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in several instances. Too many, at this point. >> Perhaps not even the exact thing but something similar or associated (e.g. searched for dog treats, sees ads for dog beds)? Definitely not. These things are often obscure, and many times, said in jest, and never repeated via texts, and certainly never looked up in a serious context. >> Have you visited a place that sells that thing with location services enabled? I keep all of my location services disabled by default. I do enough development to know that's a poor idea. >> Do your friends express a lot of interest in the things advertised (posts, pictures, comments on any FB platform)? No, again, I think it's that these things are often said or suggested in a joking manner that really throws my friends and I off a lot of the time. >> Do you spend a decent amount of time with these friends? What about other people that use the same home/work networks that you do? For sure. I spend a lot of time with a lot of my friends, and again, these things are observed by co-workers as well, our security is extremely tight at my office, so the idea that could be exploited in any way by something like Facebook is disturbing at best. Frankly, the fact that you have to ask me these things alone is evidence enough as-is that there is an insane amount of intrusiveness going on.
conradfr 8y ago
Here's my anecdote. In March my brother and I were visiting my father on holidays. My brother jokes to him that even on vacation he brings a soldering iron (he makes an esp* open source webradio player as a retirement project), and that was the end of it. Later on in the evening my brother had ads for soldering iron in the Facebook app. So it totally can be a coincidence, or not.
joyeuse6701 8y ago
My wife and I conduct experiments. The first was shouting “dog food” multiple times in earshot to our google home and phones. Sure enough a chewse.com pamphlet came in the mail a few days later with a discount for the website. We’ve mentioned some pretty eclectic things and found ads on Hulu correspond. I had heard some story or myth that Target could predict pregnancies based on customer’s purchase habits [1], and half believed it. Now I really do. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...
- migc 8y ago
  I really don't think these companies would risk doing that. I think millions of people receive advertising from chewy each day. Snooping on users like that would cost them everything.
randycupertino 8y ago
I thought it was just a rumor until I experienced it firsthand. I was walking down a long hallway at work with a coworker between meetings. At one end of the hallway my zipper broke on my backpack. We walked and talked about backpack zippers though the corridor while I held my phone in my hand walking. She and I were talking about if you could sew in a new zipper or you'd have to buy an entirely new backpack. And if you could hand-sew in the new zipper or if you'd need a sewing machine. When we got to our next meeting we were 10 minutes early so I logged into facebook. BOOM- ZIPPER ads and backpack ads. I'd search for nothing about zippers, hadn't googled zippers, and my backpack zipper had just broken at the previous meeting. Literally the only way it could have known about that to show me those ads had been that it was listening via my microphone.
- statguy 8y ago
  Here is another anecdote. I was talking to a friend through a WhatsApp voice call. During the call he told me that he had just bought an air hockey table. Later that day when I logged in to Facebook, I see an ad for an air hockey table. Creeped the hell out of me.

holtalanm 8y ago

no effect for me, personally. my reasons for deleting the app and halting usage of facebook was entirely based on the plethora of toxic/useless content that just made me want to punch most of my friends in the face.

thelasthuman 8y ago
It's hard for some people to be a portrait of themselves. It's much easier to reflect the world around you. When you're alone on Facebook it's easier to be yourself, and for some it's not a pretty picture.
_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
I recall someone posting on Reddit: Facebook = Friends and family pissing me off Reddit = Strangers amusing me
- artursapek 8y ago
  Hah that's perfect. I hope reddit never lets themselves ruin that for some ad money.

Symbiote 8y ago

I wouldn't particularly discourage the rumor. The app has enough permissions that when coupled with Facebook's data analytics it amounts to a similar invasion of privacy.

dymk 8y ago
> I wouldn't particularly discourage the rumor. You might as well just admit to encouraging disinformation campaigns against things you don't personally like.
- eiaoa 8y ago
  It's not really disinformation, just a slight inaccuracy. For years they were collecting text messages and call logs: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb... Not quite "listening to calls," but not too different either. It shows you where their heart is.
  - dymk 8y ago
    The claim was not that they were listening to calls (which they also directly claim they don't do, according to your article), it was that Facebook listens to you through the app. They've also explicitly stated they don't do that, as well.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  Your friend's friend says the Facebook app tracks conversations. Do you a) Vaguely agree that Facebook is awful, and removing the app is a good idea, b) Start explaining how a detailed log of every app user's location, time spent reading each story, typing speed, searches, lists of other apps used (or in use), full lists of contacts, calendar events, text messages, phone call history, photographs, nearby WiFi networks and battery statistics can be combined with website-based Facebook use and tracking cookies on other sites, allowing Facebook to create a detailed profile of each user, and that's why they showed the creepily-relevant advert. I would usually choose (a), unless the discussion is specifically about data privacy. (b) is not literally listening, but it's close enough for a casual discussion.
  - dymk 8y ago
    Er, I wouldn't choose either. If a friend asked me if Facebook tracks conversations, I'd just give it to them straight from the horse's mouth: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-phones-microphone-for-ads-or-news-feed-stories/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-ph...

randyrand 8y ago

Do they not use your conversations for targeted ads? This is news to me, and surprising.

wgerard 8y ago
While anything's possible, it would be pretty shocking if Facebook figured out how to, on iOS (I can't speak for Android): * Record audio if the app's killed completely * Record audio with microphone permission disabled * etc. All of which have been claimed. The far more likely scenario is that we're much more predictable than we think. Remember the target controversy when they figured out a teenage girl was pregnant before she had told her parents [1]? That happened in 2012. Imagine how much more advanced things have become since then. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/#259f6bd56668 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...
- randyrand 8y ago
  I was talking about the messenger texting app
  - Splines 8y ago
    I don't know why this got downvoted, while the question "does FB listen in on you" may not have a definitive answer, the answer to the question "does FB messenger look at your conversation text" is "yes": http://time.com/money/5227844/facebook-reviews-private-messages/ http://time.com/money/5227844/facebook-reviews-private-messa... Does it use your private messages for advertising? It seems like "no" for now, but nothing is stopping them.

rchaud 8y ago

This came up (albeit regarding Instagram ads) at a Seattle conference I was at a couple of weeks ago. It was during a talk about the future of video ads. An FB engineer was one of the panelists, so an audience member relayed a story of him having a conversation about a product with a friend, and then seeing an ad for that exact product in his Instagram timeline.

Camillo 8y ago
Well, what was the response?
- aluminussoma 8y ago
  This is the official Facebook response on using your microphone: https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-phones-microphone-for-ads-or-news-feed-stories/ https://newsroom.fb.com/news/h/facebook-does-not-use-your-ph... According to that, they do not listen for ads.

esotericn 8y ago

Why do you find that surprising? The fact of the matter is, the company's modus operandi is to collect as much information from you as possible. Their business model is spyware. Whether the application currently records conversations or not is almost immaterial. You know that if they could get away with it, they would.

ashelmire 8y ago

Whether or not they are actually listening to conversations, the effect is the same; ads that are way too personal. I suspect they have much more information than what we tell them, and I mean raw data, not what's derived from collaborative filtering or other techniques. I wonder if our ISPs, streaming services, banks, visa, etc, share data. Maybe it's just the trackers all over the internet. Getting ads for a specific product the day after discussing it in person could be luck... or not.

wgerard 8y ago
> I suspect they have much more information than what we tell them, and I mean raw data, not what's derived from collaborative filtering or other techniques. I wonder if our ISPs, streaming services, banks, visa, etc, share data. Maybe it's just the trackers all over the internet. They absolutely do. You should download your FB data, if you have an account. It's basically a list of everywhere you've shopped/been/etc. 95% of it you likely didn't share intentionally. It's quite shocking.
- macintux 8y ago
  If I'm ever forced to use Facebook via a web browser, which is rare, I make sure to open it in a private window and immediately sign out. That, and I don't allow the app to know my location, or have access to my photos. That limits the damage to a significant degree.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

rigged-system 8y ago

I have seen this first hand. At one point, I think I had figured this out because I the Facebook app had access to "Siri results", and "Siri results" is just about anything you do on your phone. We turned off Siri results, but we would still be discussing something out loud like "maybe we should go to Bali some day" and lo and behold, my wife would see ads for Bali in her Facebook stream within 1-2 hours.

rigged-system 8y ago
I want to add one more thing. The ads weren't just for a travel destination. It would be something totally out of character for us like "Let's build a tree house and rent in out on AirBnb" and there would be ads for renting out tree houses.
- mulmen 8y ago
  Sure but did you have any other interaction with the internet about these topics? Did you search Google for tree house building codes? Did you search Pinterest or Instagram for ideas? I have heard this anecdote many times but I don't believe Facebook is actually recording everything we say. Mostly because I don't think our phones have that kind of battery life. I do think they have data on essentially everything you do online.
  - softawre 8y ago
    Another common one is credit card data. If you buy a special razor at Kroger, expect to see ads about mangroomer on FB.
  - cknoxrun 8y ago
    I wonder if it is also possible they associate you with searches your friends have done after being in the same location? So if you chat about going to Bali with your friends or co-workers, and one of them searches for Bali flights, they then display Bali ads to the entire group.
    - 8y ago

forgottenpass 8y ago

When anyone technically inclined tries to explain the difference, laypeople just hear a lawyer saying: "Well, they don't do exactly that, but they do the entire list of other things you could ever brainstorm that are in the same class as that. And a dozen more gross things you are just learning exist as part of this clarification."

eiaoa 8y ago

> Anecdotal obviously, but I'm surprised at how pervasive the "Facebook listens to your conversations through the app" rumors are, even among the more technically literate. They were slurping up text massages and collecting call logs, IIRC. So the rumor isn't too far from the truth. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/03/faceb...

lostgame 8y ago

I’m curious as to whether it’s a rumour. I’m an iOS developer, and I know how difficult and seemingly implausible these rumours are, but the causal evidence to the contrary I’ve experienced is too ‘Black Mirror’ for my liking, or others. I have troubles convincing myself it’s not true because it just happens on an almost bi-daily basis - it’s too accurate and it regularly involves things either my friends or I have definitively not typed but only spoken about. It’s creepy as hell.

kickopotomus 8y ago
Are you sure that your friends haven't searched for whatever FB suggested? Perhaps not even the exact thing but something similar or associated (e.g. searched for dog treats, sees ads for dog beds)? Have you visited a place that sells that thing with location services enabled? Do your friends express a lot of interest in the things advertised (posts, pictures, comments on any FB platform)? Do you spend a decent amount of time with these friends? What about other people that use the same home/work networks that you do? Being able to accurately predict what you might be interested in, or at least interested enough to click on is how FB makes their money. That is where a bulk of their R&D spend goes. Couple that with the fact that humans are creatures of habit and relatively predictable, and you can end up with the notion that FB or Google must be listening in on everything you are saying.
- lostgame 8y ago
  > Are you sure that your friends haven't searched for whatever FB suggested? Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, in several instances. Too many, at this point. >> Perhaps not even the exact thing but something similar or associated (e.g. searched for dog treats, sees ads for dog beds)? Definitely not. These things are often obscure, and many times, said in jest, and never repeated via texts, and certainly never looked up in a serious context. >> Have you visited a place that sells that thing with location services enabled? I keep all of my location services disabled by default. I do enough development to know that's a poor idea. >> Do your friends express a lot of interest in the things advertised (posts, pictures, comments on any FB platform)? No, again, I think it's that these things are often said or suggested in a joking manner that really throws my friends and I off a lot of the time. >> Do you spend a decent amount of time with these friends? What about other people that use the same home/work networks that you do? For sure. I spend a lot of time with a lot of my friends, and again, these things are observed by co-workers as well, our security is extremely tight at my office, so the idea that could be exploited in any way by something like Facebook is disturbing at best. Frankly, the fact that you have to ask me these things alone is evidence enough as-is that there is an insane amount of intrusiveness going on.

conradfr 8y ago

Here's my anecdote. In March my brother and I were visiting my father on holidays. My brother jokes to him that even on vacation he brings a soldering iron (he makes an esp* open source webradio player as a retirement project), and that was the end of it. Later on in the evening my brother had ads for soldering iron in the Facebook app. So it totally can be a coincidence, or not.

joyeuse6701 8y ago

My wife and I conduct experiments. The first was shouting “dog food” multiple times in earshot to our google home and phones. Sure enough a chewse.com pamphlet came in the mail a few days later with a discount for the website. We’ve mentioned some pretty eclectic things and found ads on Hulu correspond. I had heard some story or myth that Target could predict pregnancies based on customer’s purchase habits [1], and half believed it. Now I really do. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...

migc 8y ago
I really don't think these companies would risk doing that. I think millions of people receive advertising from chewy each day. Snooping on users like that would cost them everything.

randycupertino 8y ago

I thought it was just a rumor until I experienced it firsthand. I was walking down a long hallway at work with a coworker between meetings. At one end of the hallway my zipper broke on my backpack. We walked and talked about backpack zippers though the corridor while I held my phone in my hand walking. She and I were talking about if you could sew in a new zipper or you'd have to buy an entirely new backpack. And if you could hand-sew in the new zipper or if you'd need a sewing machine. When we got to our next meeting we were 10 minutes early so I logged into facebook. BOOM- ZIPPER ads and backpack ads. I'd search for nothing about zippers, hadn't googled zippers, and my backpack zipper had just broken at the previous meeting. Literally the only way it could have known about that to show me those ads had been that it was listening via my microphone.

statguy 8y ago
Here is another anecdote. I was talking to a friend through a WhatsApp voice call. During the call he told me that he had just bought an air hockey table. Later that day when I logged in to Facebook, I see an ad for an air hockey table. Creeped the hell out of me.