5 ms·

Am I the only geezer that absolutely detests 'controllers'? I prefer to play games with WASD and a mouse like God intended.

calgoo 8y ago
No there are a lot of us.
irascible 8y ago
Same here.. but keep in mind.. xboxes also keep the kids out of the games you play, and when they do manage to play in games you're in, they're either get aim-assists (which sucks but ok..), or they are getting wrecked by wasd/mouse players.
Jach 8y ago
Have you played Dark Souls? While some crazy people have beaten it with such crippled input devices as DDR pads or guitar hero guitars, it's one of many classes of games that just play better with a controller.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  The PC port of Dark Souls was really bad, with the KB+M controls being particularly stupid. Since the developer never felt like fixing it, I found that enough to swear off the developer and their games forever. I'm sure the game would work fine with KB+M if the port developers were competent.
  - 0-_-0 8y ago
    There is a mod that fixes it. Dark Souls was the best game I played in the last 5 years, it's worth the hassle.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      Last I tried that mode still had screwy mouse input, but even assuming that it corrected it completely I don't feel I should reward a developer for producing a product that the community had to fix for them.
      - 0-_-0 8y ago
        Well it's up to you. I think in this case you lose waaay more than the developer does.
  - Jach 8y ago
    I think I tried the default KB+M controls, and while you could remap them with DSFix (or since it's a PC, whatever program), I just got a controller instead and everything was fine. You're free to reject a brilliant game over such a petty hurdle, I know someone who refused to play Skyrim because they were insulted by the console-ified UI and waited for someone to make a PC-friendly mod, but it is petty... I really don't think you can make Dark Souls work well with any KB+M combo, at least without fundamentally changing the gameplay for the worse. Literally every input on an Xbox controller has a purpose (with the exception of left analog press, I think, in later games in the series though they made either that or the classic tap-certain-button-while-running to jump, and I don't recall if they backported that to the 'Remastered' version) and some purposes are contextual. But maybe you know of another game I could look at that does it right with KB+M, which also meets these constraints: need to move camera freely, need to move 3rd person player freely at variable speeds from a sneak to a walk to a jog, need to toggle-lock enemies, need to 'activate' light action and heavy action for both left and right arms, sometimes at the same time (e.g. spear attack while shielding), need to switch between up to two held items for both left and right hands, need to switch between several spells/hexes/etc. that determines the selected one used when an arm holding the right item is activated, need to switch between several consumable items, need to have a use action to use the currently selected consumable, need a generic action for opening things / dialog selection / etc., need an action to toggle two-handing the right-hand weapon, need an action to trigger back-step, rolling, running fast, and jumping-while-running, need an action to open the game menu for item equipping and other menu things, need an action to open a list of taunts/gestures to use, oh and all of this needs to be done without pausing the game or having some sort of bullet time effect. Listing it out, I might be able to make something work for myself (as in, I could maybe beat the game despite the controls, I'd give up any sneak attacks) but it'd be using my mouse that has several buttons on it (which incidentally cost about as much as a controller). Common three button mouse? More skeptical. And still I don't think it would be as comfortable for when actions such as holding shield, toggle lock, strike, strike, heavy strike, roll, parry, strike are called for, let alone what I can do if I need to quickly swap equipment for some situation.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      > You're free to reject a brilliant game over such a petty hurdle I'm more rejecting the developer. That port was outright insulting in how bad it was. That'd be forgivable, except that the developers didn't ever deign to fix it. That's an unacceptable level of disregard for your customers in my opinion.
throwaway080383 8y ago
Depends on the game. Totally agree for FPS, but e.g. EA Skate was basically designed to be played with two sticks.
CyberShadow 8y ago
No. Many classes of games are better with a keyboard (even those which don't heavily rely on mouse input, i.e. FPS/RTS/MOBA). In addition to a mouse's advantage, you can use all five fingers, instead of making the thumbs do almost all of the work.
Shorel 8y ago
It depends on the game. Batman Arkham Asylum is the game that made me appreciate controllers. And it is one of the first games, if not the very first, that works seamlessly using keyboard + mouse, or controllers, of several kinds I guess. If I play with the mouse + keyboard, I get hints for the actions with the key or mouse button required. Without changing any setting, or restarting the game, or anything that interrupts my game, if I just pick up the controller, all the hints are now controller related. After that, I use the controller for Batman games.
arayh 8y ago
Personally, I feel that platformer games work well on gamepads, while RTS and FPS games work well on keyboard and mouse. Fighting games work well on arcade sticks (trying to pull off a 360 or 720 motion on a keyboard is definitely not what God intended).
jplayer01 8y ago
Racing games feel terrible with KB. Controllers make them much more enjoyable and immersive (though a wheel is still the best solution). Especially the trigger vibration/resistance on the Xbox One controller when playing Forza Horizon 4.. holy shit, it feels so satisfying to drive.
kbenson 8y ago
> I prefer to play games with WASD and a mouse like God intended. Yeah, that works for some subset of games. If you're doing is playing FPS games and some workable subset of side-scrollers, sure. But games designed for a specific control scheme generally play much better with that controller. I've played my fair share of emulated NES/SNES games, and while workable on a keyboard, let's not kid ourselves and say it's just as good. And I remember playing DOOM not with WASD (because I don't think anyone was at that point), but with the numeric control pad so I could easily strafe (when the default most people seemed to use were arrow keys), so it's not like WASD came out fully formed and obvious from the start.[1] Control schemes change, and people usually end up adopting what works best for a specific genre (or specific game, if it's genre-bending enough). Don't get me wrong, I abhor the idea of playing a FPS game with a controller as well... but not all games are FPS games. 1: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-wasd-became-the-standard-pc-control-scheme/ https://www.pcgamer.com/how-wasd-became-the-standard-pc-cont...
stubish 8y ago
I've switched to controllers when I can to avoid hand and shoulder pain. I've found that, ergonomics aside, which is better depends on the type of game you are playing. I'd agree that, mostly, mouse + keyboard is the superior input mechanism. But the 'WASD' bit fails when the controls require two analog inputs rather than 1 analog and one digital (driving games, flight sims). I'm still looking for the 'best' controller though, as I don't think it exists yet. I don't know if you can combine a device like a mouse suitable for 'twitch' FPS games with controls suitable for a 6 degrees of freedom game like Descent, Elite or Star Citizen (which currently require two joysticks, pedals, and ideally voice control to play in 'advanced' mode).

calgoo 8y ago

No there are a lot of us.

irascible 8y ago

Same here.. but keep in mind.. xboxes also keep the kids out of the games you play, and when they do manage to play in games you're in, they're either get aim-assists (which sucks but ok..), or they are getting wrecked by wasd/mouse players.

Jach 8y ago

Have you played Dark Souls? While some crazy people have beaten it with such crippled input devices as DDR pads or guitar hero guitars, it's one of many classes of games that just play better with a controller.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
The PC port of Dark Souls was really bad, with the KB+M controls being particularly stupid. Since the developer never felt like fixing it, I found that enough to swear off the developer and their games forever. I'm sure the game would work fine with KB+M if the port developers were competent.
- 0-_-0 8y ago
  There is a mod that fixes it. Dark Souls was the best game I played in the last 5 years, it's worth the hassle.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Last I tried that mode still had screwy mouse input, but even assuming that it corrected it completely I don't feel I should reward a developer for producing a product that the community had to fix for them.
    - 0-_-0 8y ago
      Well it's up to you. I think in this case you lose waaay more than the developer does.
- Jach 8y ago
  I think I tried the default KB+M controls, and while you could remap them with DSFix (or since it's a PC, whatever program), I just got a controller instead and everything was fine. You're free to reject a brilliant game over such a petty hurdle, I know someone who refused to play Skyrim because they were insulted by the console-ified UI and waited for someone to make a PC-friendly mod, but it is petty... I really don't think you can make Dark Souls work well with any KB+M combo, at least without fundamentally changing the gameplay for the worse. Literally every input on an Xbox controller has a purpose (with the exception of left analog press, I think, in later games in the series though they made either that or the classic tap-certain-button-while-running to jump, and I don't recall if they backported that to the 'Remastered' version) and some purposes are contextual. But maybe you know of another game I could look at that does it right with KB+M, which also meets these constraints: need to move camera freely, need to move 3rd person player freely at variable speeds from a sneak to a walk to a jog, need to toggle-lock enemies, need to 'activate' light action and heavy action for both left and right arms, sometimes at the same time (e.g. spear attack while shielding), need to switch between up to two held items for both left and right hands, need to switch between several spells/hexes/etc. that determines the selected one used when an arm holding the right item is activated, need to switch between several consumable items, need to have a use action to use the currently selected consumable, need a generic action for opening things / dialog selection / etc., need an action to toggle two-handing the right-hand weapon, need an action to trigger back-step, rolling, running fast, and jumping-while-running, need an action to open the game menu for item equipping and other menu things, need an action to open a list of taunts/gestures to use, oh and all of this needs to be done without pausing the game or having some sort of bullet time effect. Listing it out, I might be able to make something work for myself (as in, I could maybe beat the game despite the controls, I'd give up any sneak attacks) but it'd be using my mouse that has several buttons on it (which incidentally cost about as much as a controller). Common three button mouse? More skeptical. And still I don't think it would be as comfortable for when actions such as holding shield, toggle lock, strike, strike, heavy strike, roll, parry, strike are called for, let alone what I can do if I need to quickly swap equipment for some situation.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > You're free to reject a brilliant game over such a petty hurdle I'm more rejecting the developer. That port was outright insulting in how bad it was. That'd be forgivable, except that the developers didn't ever deign to fix it. That's an unacceptable level of disregard for your customers in my opinion.

throwaway080383 8y ago

Depends on the game. Totally agree for FPS, but e.g. EA Skate was basically designed to be played with two sticks.

CyberShadow 8y ago

No. Many classes of games are better with a keyboard (even those which don't heavily rely on mouse input, i.e. FPS/RTS/MOBA). In addition to a mouse's advantage, you can use all five fingers, instead of making the thumbs do almost all of the work.

Shorel 8y ago

It depends on the game. Batman Arkham Asylum is the game that made me appreciate controllers. And it is one of the first games, if not the very first, that works seamlessly using keyboard + mouse, or controllers, of several kinds I guess. If I play with the mouse + keyboard, I get hints for the actions with the key or mouse button required. Without changing any setting, or restarting the game, or anything that interrupts my game, if I just pick up the controller, all the hints are now controller related. After that, I use the controller for Batman games.

arayh 8y ago

Personally, I feel that platformer games work well on gamepads, while RTS and FPS games work well on keyboard and mouse. Fighting games work well on arcade sticks (trying to pull off a 360 or 720 motion on a keyboard is definitely not what God intended).

jplayer01 8y ago

Racing games feel terrible with KB. Controllers make them much more enjoyable and immersive (though a wheel is still the best solution). Especially the trigger vibration/resistance on the Xbox One controller when playing Forza Horizon 4.. holy shit, it feels so satisfying to drive.

kbenson 8y ago

> I prefer to play games with WASD and a mouse like God intended. Yeah, that works for some subset of games. If you're doing is playing FPS games and some workable subset of side-scrollers, sure. But games designed for a specific control scheme generally play much better with that controller. I've played my fair share of emulated NES/SNES games, and while workable on a keyboard, let's not kid ourselves and say it's just as good. And I remember playing DOOM not with WASD (because I don't think anyone was at that point), but with the numeric control pad so I could easily strafe (when the default most people seemed to use were arrow keys), so it's not like WASD came out fully formed and obvious from the start.[1] Control schemes change, and people usually end up adopting what works best for a specific genre (or specific game, if it's genre-bending enough). Don't get me wrong, I abhor the idea of playing a FPS game with a controller as well... but not all games are FPS games. 1: https://www.pcgamer.com/how-wasd-became-the-standard-pc-control-scheme/ https://www.pcgamer.com/how-wasd-became-the-standard-pc-cont...

stubish 8y ago

I've switched to controllers when I can to avoid hand and shoulder pain. I've found that, ergonomics aside, which is better depends on the type of game you are playing. I'd agree that, mostly, mouse + keyboard is the superior input mechanism. But the 'WASD' bit fails when the controls require two analog inputs rather than 1 analog and one digital (driving games, flight sims). I'm still looking for the 'best' controller though, as I don't think it exists yet. I don't know if you can combine a device like a mouse suitable for 'twitch' FPS games with controls suitable for a 6 degrees of freedom game like Descent, Elite or Star Citizen (which currently require two joysticks, pedals, and ideally voice control to play in 'advanced' mode).