6 ms·

I am currently working for IBM and I'm tied. I had to supress my commercial project once I joined big blue. What I have in contract is - if you want to open a c

I am currently working for IBM and I'm tied. I had to supress my commercial project once I joined big blue. What I have in contract is - if you want to open a company, you need IBM's permission first. And it's just frustrating as they try to block it for as long as possibe even if you're not doing IT in your private little business.

aedron 8y ago
A long time ago I joined IBM via an acquistion of the company I worked for. One part of the (lengthy) contract I had to sign, was a form listing any side projects I may have that I would be required to no longer work on. I simply omitted that page when I returned the contract and no one ever noticed.
- JohannesH 8y ago
  I'm curious. Anyone care to outline the legal ramifications of this action? What would happen if IBM tried to stop his side-project? 1. Would IBM be able to enforce the original contract as it was outlined when they sent it to him? Would he be liable to fraud or other similar charges (for instance if he altered the contract after IBM representative added their signature)? 2. Or would the altered contract stand up in court?
  - Leace 8y ago
    This reminds me of that extreme example of altering the contract: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowin...
    - JohannesH 8y ago
      Very interesting read. However, he changed it before the bank added their signarture. I imagine that if you change the contract after a signature is added by one party, and then add your own signarture, that would surely be fraud... right?
      - vorpalhex 8y ago
        If you presented the post-hoc changed contract as binding, I believe so. If you presented the post-hoc changed contract back to IBM and went "Hey, do you agree to an updated contract?" then you'd probably be laughed out of their office, but that's not a crime to ask them to update a contract.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        JohannesH 8y ago
        You could make an intentionally vague reply saying; "Thanks! Here is the updated contract with my signature back.". Making the other party think you just updated the contract by adding your signature.
      - gspetr 8y ago
        I remember the story. The bank's CEO (the guy is a billionaire of considerable notoriety in Russia) threatened to put the story's protagonist in jail for fraud for 4 years. The protagonist took the threat very seriously (as he should have) and in a later interview to banki.ru (i.e. banks.ru) said that he was fleeing the country to a destination he preferred to keep secret. Reason being the precise "4 years" that was used. Not 2, not 3, not 5. Meaning that the CEO had already made "arrangements". Then 2 days later there was an article that both him and the bank have reached a peaceful resolution and were recalling all mutual lawsuits.
    - nnforall 8y ago
      I routinely alter almost every contract I receive. It drives a lot of doctor offices/emergency rooms nuts. But they have so far always calculated that their liability will be higher if they refuse service than if they allow me to cross out the part that says I won't sue them if they kill me. It is a point of amusement to me to see that the receptionist is extremely uncomfortable agreeing to the terms I have come up with in the last five minutes. They don't think it is reasonable for me to expect them to execute the altered contract without consulting attorneys. I point out that five minutes ago they asked me to sign a contract without consulting a legal expert. Their multi-page contract had been painstakingly drafted by a team of expensive lawyers and meticulously tweaked over years. Yet they gave me mere seconds to read it, understand it, and sign it under duress of not receiving medical attention. If they balk at the contract I hand back to them, how can they expect me not to balk at the original contract? On the other hand, if they refuse to provide medical care because I wouldn't sign away my rights to any photographs that might be submitted to medical journals, they had better be very confident in their lawyers. Banks, rental agencies, repair shops, etc., on the other hand, can safely refuse my revised contract. Most don't glance at them when I hand them back.
      - consp 8y ago
        There is a very good reason (pressure) these kind of contracts are unenforceable in most of the world. That would work both ways.
        nnforall 8y ago
        If they choose to have a judge nullify the contract, I'm good with that. I didn't add any verbage to the contract anyway, so that would just mean that the entire contract is void and not just the parts I crossed out. We can re-negotiate the whole thing. Oh, but this time, seeing as we're in front of a judge and all, I have a lawyer with me. And we can examine the reasonableness of every single line item on the bill without any medical time constraints. The new contract can be something we collaborate on. Them, their lawyers, me, my lawyers, the whole happy family. We can take four or five years to do that. I'll pay them when we sort it all out. Or... they can accept my thanks for sewing my toe back on and bill my insurance. Either way, we are on much more equal ground after the fact.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ldng 8y ago
    IANAL, nut I would say 2. You can alter a contract proposition. It was up to IBM to check what was actually signed.
    - remedan 8y ago
      On the other hand, if I intentionally mislead you about the contents of a contract, it might not be binding. If you hand me a 10 page document, I pencil something in on page 7, sign it and hand it back to you without notifying you of the change, I don't thing you'd be required to honour my modifications.
      - candiodari 8y ago
        Or you know, it might be fraud, as in the crime. Misleading someone about the contents of the contract they signed is exactly that. The paper (they printed) and gave to you in the understanding that you would sign and return it was altered in flight. Essentially: if IBM wants you thrown in jail, you will be thrown in jail for this. Have fun in court.
    - kingnothing 8y ago
      At least for real estate contracts in the US, both parties have to initial each of the alterations and amendments to the contract that typically come up during negotiations. I doubt a random line crossed out in a contract would hold any legal weight in court unless acknowledged by both parties.
ptero 8y ago
> I had to supress my commercial project once I joined big blue. I am pretty sure this is the standard practice at all large companies, at least in the US. Small companies may just not care too much, but even at a small company if your management notices you might have to choose between that and your day coding. I wish it was not like this, but to me this is at least somewhat justifiable. Much worse is the desire of most employers to control everything you do, including your work on open source project off hours. Want to fix coordinate computation for an open source satellite sim? Call the lawyers first. Lead a robotics club at a high school? Check with the management. IMO many employees do it anyway and hope to not get called on this, but this is formally going against the contract.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chasd00 8y ago
  How do enough people agree to those terms to make them plausible in the first place? That's like going to work at a restaurant and being required to stop working at a soup kitchen on the weekends. I would never agree to those terms and strike them out. That's ridiculous.
  - brightball 8y ago
    One way of looking at it is paying for mindshare. Sometimes companies want your brainpower only focussed on one programming problem. They might not want you at work, thinking about items in your side project. Focus is a big deal. Doesn't make it right but it's the only business justification I've ever heard that actually seemed legit. At the same time, there should be an expectation of compensation to give something like that up.
- Reedx 8y ago
  I've only worked at one large company (EA), but they were ok with side businesses as long as it wasn't competing with their core business of gaming. IIRC you could even promote it internally. This was about 9 years ago. For game related things you could list them as existing inventions when joining. So you can carve out exceptions. Which is common with game companies.

aedron 8y ago

A long time ago I joined IBM via an acquistion of the company I worked for. One part of the (lengthy) contract I had to sign, was a form listing any side projects I may have that I would be required to no longer work on. I simply omitted that page when I returned the contract and no one ever noticed.

JohannesH 8y ago
I'm curious. Anyone care to outline the legal ramifications of this action? What would happen if IBM tried to stop his side-project? 1. Would IBM be able to enforce the original contract as it was outlined when they sent it to him? Would he be liable to fraud or other similar charges (for instance if he altered the contract after IBM representative added their signature)? 2. Or would the altered contract stand up in court?
- Leace 8y ago
  This reminds me of that extreme example of altering the contract: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowin...
  - JohannesH 8y ago
    Very interesting read. However, he changed it before the bank added their signarture. I imagine that if you change the contract after a signature is added by one party, and then add your own signarture, that would surely be fraud... right?
    - vorpalhex 8y ago
      If you presented the post-hoc changed contract as binding, I believe so. If you presented the post-hoc changed contract back to IBM and went "Hey, do you agree to an updated contract?" then you'd probably be laughed out of their office, but that's not a crime to ask them to update a contract.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - JohannesH 8y ago
        You could make an intentionally vague reply saying; "Thanks! Here is the updated contract with my signature back.". Making the other party think you just updated the contract by adding your signature.
    - gspetr 8y ago
      I remember the story. The bank's CEO (the guy is a billionaire of considerable notoriety in Russia) threatened to put the story's protagonist in jail for fraud for 4 years. The protagonist took the threat very seriously (as he should have) and in a later interview to banki.ru (i.e. banks.ru) said that he was fleeing the country to a destination he preferred to keep secret. Reason being the precise "4 years" that was used. Not 2, not 3, not 5. Meaning that the CEO had already made "arrangements". Then 2 days later there was an article that both him and the bank have reached a peaceful resolution and were recalling all mutual lawsuits.
  - nnforall 8y ago
    I routinely alter almost every contract I receive. It drives a lot of doctor offices/emergency rooms nuts. But they have so far always calculated that their liability will be higher if they refuse service than if they allow me to cross out the part that says I won't sue them if they kill me. It is a point of amusement to me to see that the receptionist is extremely uncomfortable agreeing to the terms I have come up with in the last five minutes. They don't think it is reasonable for me to expect them to execute the altered contract without consulting attorneys. I point out that five minutes ago they asked me to sign a contract without consulting a legal expert. Their multi-page contract had been painstakingly drafted by a team of expensive lawyers and meticulously tweaked over years. Yet they gave me mere seconds to read it, understand it, and sign it under duress of not receiving medical attention. If they balk at the contract I hand back to them, how can they expect me not to balk at the original contract? On the other hand, if they refuse to provide medical care because I wouldn't sign away my rights to any photographs that might be submitted to medical journals, they had better be very confident in their lawyers. Banks, rental agencies, repair shops, etc., on the other hand, can safely refuse my revised contract. Most don't glance at them when I hand them back.
    - consp 8y ago
      There is a very good reason (pressure) these kind of contracts are unenforceable in most of the world. That would work both ways.
      - nnforall 8y ago
        If they choose to have a judge nullify the contract, I'm good with that. I didn't add any verbage to the contract anyway, so that would just mean that the entire contract is void and not just the parts I crossed out. We can re-negotiate the whole thing. Oh, but this time, seeing as we're in front of a judge and all, I have a lawyer with me. And we can examine the reasonableness of every single line item on the bill without any medical time constraints. The new contract can be something we collaborate on. Them, their lawyers, me, my lawyers, the whole happy family. We can take four or five years to do that. I'll pay them when we sort it all out. Or... they can accept my thanks for sewing my toe back on and bill my insurance. Either way, we are on much more equal ground after the fact.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ldng 8y ago
  IANAL, nut I would say 2. You can alter a contract proposition. It was up to IBM to check what was actually signed.
  - remedan 8y ago
    On the other hand, if I intentionally mislead you about the contents of a contract, it might not be binding. If you hand me a 10 page document, I pencil something in on page 7, sign it and hand it back to you without notifying you of the change, I don't thing you'd be required to honour my modifications.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      Or you know, it might be fraud, as in the crime. Misleading someone about the contents of the contract they signed is exactly that. The paper (they printed) and gave to you in the understanding that you would sign and return it was altered in flight. Essentially: if IBM wants you thrown in jail, you will be thrown in jail for this. Have fun in court.
  - kingnothing 8y ago
    At least for real estate contracts in the US, both parties have to initial each of the alterations and amendments to the contract that typically come up during negotiations. I doubt a random line crossed out in a contract would hold any legal weight in court unless acknowledged by both parties.

ptero 8y ago

> I had to supress my commercial project once I joined big blue. I am pretty sure this is the standard practice at all large companies, at least in the US. Small companies may just not care too much, but even at a small company if your management notices you might have to choose between that and your day coding. I wish it was not like this, but to me this is at least somewhat justifiable. Much worse is the desire of most employers to control everything you do, including your work on open source project off hours. Want to fix coordinate computation for an open source satellite sim? Call the lawyers first. Lead a robotics club at a high school? Check with the management. IMO many employees do it anyway and hope to not get called on this, but this is formally going against the contract.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chasd00 8y ago
How do enough people agree to those terms to make them plausible in the first place? That's like going to work at a restaurant and being required to stop working at a soup kitchen on the weekends. I would never agree to those terms and strike them out. That's ridiculous.
- brightball 8y ago
  One way of looking at it is paying for mindshare. Sometimes companies want your brainpower only focussed on one programming problem. They might not want you at work, thinking about items in your side project. Focus is a big deal. Doesn't make it right but it's the only business justification I've ever heard that actually seemed legit. At the same time, there should be an expectation of compensation to give something like that up.
Reedx 8y ago
I've only worked at one large company (EA), but they were ok with side businesses as long as it wasn't competing with their core business of gaming. IIRC you could even promote it internally. This was about 9 years ago. For game related things you could list them as existing inventions when joining. So you can carve out exceptions. Which is common with game companies.