4 ms·

This is so wrong that you almost start to think that the eff is somehow exaggerating this; they're probably not. The secrecy is the worst part. Democracies sho

This is so wrong that you almost start to think that the eff is somehow exaggerating this; they're probably not. The secrecy is the worst part. Democracies should be about openness. EU is arguably democratic and hardly open.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
isostatic 8y ago
The EU is usually open -- see the TTIP negotiations. The EU Parliament is elected based on popular vote. If populists like Farage are in the parliament, that's only because people vote for them. Hardly undemocratic. The EU Council comprises the elected head of government of each member state. Hardly undemocratic. The EU Commission comprises a president, who is selected by the EU Council and approved or denied by the EU Parliament. The Council also appoints the members of the commission, each country appoints 1 person. In the UK this is no different to the PM appointing ministers. For this law to pass, not only does the parliament of elected MEPs have to pass it, but so does a majority of the Council, elected leaders. While it suits heads of various EU governemnts to blame 'the EU', it's entirely in their control to approve or reject the directive, and it's entirely in your MEP's control to approve or reject it.
- lixtra 8y ago
  > The EU Parliament is elected based on popular vote. Depending from which country you are from your vote may weight differently up to a factor of 11 (Luxembourg vs Spain) [1], hardly democratic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_...
  - PunchTornado 8y ago
    the same thing is happening in the US, right? big states like california vs smaller states like delaware. I think there is value into rules like these because otherwise smaller states will be always trumped.
    - lixtra 8y ago
      This is not true for the Congress which is the comparable institution to the European Parliament. Each state is apportioned a number of seats which approximately corresponds to its share of the aggregate population of the 50 states. ... The method of equal proportions minimizes the percentage differences in the populations of the congressional districts. [1] Some outliers exist, because states are guaranteed at least one seat (compare that with 6 for Luxembourg) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_apportionment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_ap...
      - PunchTornado 8y ago
        I don't get your point. you say it is not true and then you agree that some outliers exist. this is exactly the point, that there are outliers like this in US Congress, just like there are in the EU parliament. Probably the value is higher in the EU, but I think that's fair to protect the smaller states.
        isostatic 8y ago
        His argument is that the 11:1 ratio of MEPs is not democratic, but the 2:1 ratio of Congress is democratic. The UK has a system, widely known as democratic, where the government of the day (with the exception of 2010), does not have the support of the voting population. In 2015 David Cameron and his Tory party got 100% of power in Parliament, and thus 100% of power in the executive, based on 36.9% of the voting public. The U.S presidential elections are also classed as democratic, despite that twice in the last 20 years more people have voted for a different candidate than the one who became president. (It's actually worse than 11:1 ratio -- Podlaskie and Warmian-Masurian has 1.3m voters per MEP, Malta has 70,000, that's a 19:1 ratio) However I've never heard people complain that Malta, Luxemboug, Slovenia, Cyprus etc hold the cards, people always complain it's Germany and the UK that call the shots.
HelloNurse 8y ago
"Reproduction" means reproducing excerpts, not linking.
pas 8y ago
They (the EFF and Cory Doctorow) do, it's not secret. I'm not saying the EU internal negotiations are open to all and wonderful examples of democratic policymaking, but the documents are public (thanks to an EU court ruling).

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

isostatic 8y ago

The EU is usually open -- see the TTIP negotiations. The EU Parliament is elected based on popular vote. If populists like Farage are in the parliament, that's only because people vote for them. Hardly undemocratic. The EU Council comprises the elected head of government of each member state. Hardly undemocratic. The EU Commission comprises a president, who is selected by the EU Council and approved or denied by the EU Parliament. The Council also appoints the members of the commission, each country appoints 1 person. In the UK this is no different to the PM appointing ministers. For this law to pass, not only does the parliament of elected MEPs have to pass it, but so does a majority of the Council, elected leaders. While it suits heads of various EU governemnts to blame 'the EU', it's entirely in their control to approve or reject the directive, and it's entirely in your MEP's control to approve or reject it.

lixtra 8y ago
> The EU Parliament is elected based on popular vote. Depending from which country you are from your vote may weight differently up to a factor of 11 (Luxembourg vs Spain) [1], hardly democratic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_...
- PunchTornado 8y ago
  the same thing is happening in the US, right? big states like california vs smaller states like delaware. I think there is value into rules like these because otherwise smaller states will be always trumped.
  - lixtra 8y ago
    This is not true for the Congress which is the comparable institution to the European Parliament. Each state is apportioned a number of seats which approximately corresponds to its share of the aggregate population of the 50 states. ... The method of equal proportions minimizes the percentage differences in the populations of the congressional districts. [1] Some outliers exist, because states are guaranteed at least one seat (compare that with 6 for Luxembourg) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_apportionment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_ap...
    - PunchTornado 8y ago
      I don't get your point. you say it is not true and then you agree that some outliers exist. this is exactly the point, that there are outliers like this in US Congress, just like there are in the EU parliament. Probably the value is higher in the EU, but I think that's fair to protect the smaller states.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        His argument is that the 11:1 ratio of MEPs is not democratic, but the 2:1 ratio of Congress is democratic. The UK has a system, widely known as democratic, where the government of the day (with the exception of 2010), does not have the support of the voting population. In 2015 David Cameron and his Tory party got 100% of power in Parliament, and thus 100% of power in the executive, based on 36.9% of the voting public. The U.S presidential elections are also classed as democratic, despite that twice in the last 20 years more people have voted for a different candidate than the one who became president. (It's actually worse than 11:1 ratio -- Podlaskie and Warmian-Masurian has 1.3m voters per MEP, Malta has 70,000, that's a 19:1 ratio) However I've never heard people complain that Malta, Luxemboug, Slovenia, Cyprus etc hold the cards, people always complain it's Germany and the UK that call the shots.

HelloNurse 8y ago

"Reproduction" means reproducing excerpts, not linking.

pas 8y ago

They (the EFF and Cory Doctorow) do, it's not secret. I'm not saying the EU internal negotiations are open to all and wonderful examples of democratic policymaking, but the documents are public (thanks to an EU court ruling).