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There are fees with bitcoin - the transactions that leave higher fees for the miners get processed quicker. If you don't include fees with your transaction it c

There are fees with bitcoin - the transactions that leave higher fees for the miners get processed quicker. If you don't include fees with your transaction it could take hours to be bundled into a verified block. People, myself included, jump to the criminal aspects because those are the only real world applications that are currently creating value for Bitcoin "users" (vs. speculators). Getting around borders/currency controls is valuable because it's hard to do/illegal, and Bitcoin makes it easier. The rest of the things you listed such as "highest density of wealth storage every invented" and "completely different threat model" are not use cases, and are not inherently good/bad, just different (and actually usually bad when optimizing for verification speed/efficiency and transaction clearance over chargebacks/fraud) PS did you get hired into the crypto/blockchain world, or just more optimistic after doing research? I remember us being in agreement / you being skeptical about it before

icelancer 8y ago
> People, myself included, jump to the criminal aspects because those are the only real world applications that are currently creating value for Bitcoin "users" (vs. speculators). Getting around borders/currency controls is valuable because it's hard to do/illegal, and Bitcoin makes it easier. This is definitely false. I buy a lot of things that are completely legal using cryptocurrency and find it to be pretty painless. I am a small-time miner and use the profits to buy computer gear from Newegg or resellers who want BTC and get a pretty huge discount on Amazon gear. I have zero problem spending all of my cryptocurrency on valid electronics if I desire.
seibelj 8y ago
> There are fees with bitcoin - the transactions that leave higher fees for the miners get processed quicker. If you don't include fees with your transaction it could take hours to be bundled into a verified block. As I said, the fee issue is being worked on (scaling, layer 2 networks) but that's a potential of the technology. > People, myself included, jump to the criminal aspects because those are the only real world applications that are currently creating value for Bitcoin "users" I simply disagree, if you want me to enumerate all the use cases that aren't criminal I can, but google can help. > The rest of the things you listed such as "highest density of wealth storage every invented" and "completely different threat model" are not use cases, and are not inherently good/bad, just different (and actually usually bad when optimizing for verification speed/efficiency and transaction clearance over chargebacks/fraud) Yes, it is a different sort of tradeoff, that may be useful in some cases. It's novel. > PS did you get hired into the crypto/blockchain world, or just more optimistic after doing research? I remember us being in agreement / you being skeptical about it before I have posted a lot on cryptocurrency, I have been in the industry for a while, but I am not universally optimistic about all things crypto. But overall I am bullish.
- beefield 8y ago
  >if you want me to enumerate all the use cases that aren't criminal I can. Could you start with one? And I mean one that is obviously superior to centralized solutions? What are the measures that make blockchain superior in this use case and why a centralized solution can't achieve those measures? Why the tradeoffs in other measures are insignificant? Let's further assume that decentralization itself is not an acceptable measure.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Do you think that TOR is useless then? Do you not see the value of censorship resistance? There are billions of people in the world currently living under repressive governments. The world does not revolve around the western world with all of our privileged freedoms.
    - beefield 8y ago
      I already accepted that blockchain offers value in criminal money transfers. Obviously censorship resistance is criminal in repressive regimes. It just is a bit difficult in western world to sell a product whose only actual value proposition is criminal money transfer.
      - icelancer 8y ago
        I think if you were the target (or initiator) of legal actions that don't involve criminality on your end but do involve discovery, you would think a lot differently about pseudonymous payments, and potentially encrypted communications. Speaking as someone involved in three active civil lawsuits, trust me when I say criminality is not the only reason to hide things. Being subjected to the discovery process where adversaries can uncover things about your personal life is an experience that will change most peoples' feelings about all things privacy.

icelancer 8y ago

> People, myself included, jump to the criminal aspects because those are the only real world applications that are currently creating value for Bitcoin "users" (vs. speculators). Getting around borders/currency controls is valuable because it's hard to do/illegal, and Bitcoin makes it easier. This is definitely false. I buy a lot of things that are completely legal using cryptocurrency and find it to be pretty painless. I am a small-time miner and use the profits to buy computer gear from Newegg or resellers who want BTC and get a pretty huge discount on Amazon gear. I have zero problem spending all of my cryptocurrency on valid electronics if I desire.

seibelj 8y ago

> There are fees with bitcoin - the transactions that leave higher fees for the miners get processed quicker. If you don't include fees with your transaction it could take hours to be bundled into a verified block. As I said, the fee issue is being worked on (scaling, layer 2 networks) but that's a potential of the technology. > People, myself included, jump to the criminal aspects because those are the only real world applications that are currently creating value for Bitcoin "users" I simply disagree, if you want me to enumerate all the use cases that aren't criminal I can, but google can help. > The rest of the things you listed such as "highest density of wealth storage every invented" and "completely different threat model" are not use cases, and are not inherently good/bad, just different (and actually usually bad when optimizing for verification speed/efficiency and transaction clearance over chargebacks/fraud) Yes, it is a different sort of tradeoff, that may be useful in some cases. It's novel. > PS did you get hired into the crypto/blockchain world, or just more optimistic after doing research? I remember us being in agreement / you being skeptical about it before I have posted a lot on cryptocurrency, I have been in the industry for a while, but I am not universally optimistic about all things crypto. But overall I am bullish.

beefield 8y ago
>if you want me to enumerate all the use cases that aren't criminal I can. Could you start with one? And I mean one that is obviously superior to centralized solutions? What are the measures that make blockchain superior in this use case and why a centralized solution can't achieve those measures? Why the tradeoffs in other measures are insignificant? Let's further assume that decentralization itself is not an acceptable measure.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Do you think that TOR is useless then? Do you not see the value of censorship resistance? There are billions of people in the world currently living under repressive governments. The world does not revolve around the western world with all of our privileged freedoms.
  - beefield 8y ago
    I already accepted that blockchain offers value in criminal money transfers. Obviously censorship resistance is criminal in repressive regimes. It just is a bit difficult in western world to sell a product whose only actual value proposition is criminal money transfer.
    - icelancer 8y ago
      I think if you were the target (or initiator) of legal actions that don't involve criminality on your end but do involve discovery, you would think a lot differently about pseudonymous payments, and potentially encrypted communications. Speaking as someone involved in three active civil lawsuits, trust me when I say criminality is not the only reason to hide things. Being subjected to the discovery process where adversaries can uncover things about your personal life is an experience that will change most peoples' feelings about all things privacy.