7 ms·

We actually had less alcohol-related incidents than any nearby college, despite their having significantly more restrictive policies I'm not sure how that is a

We actually had less alcohol-related incidents than any nearby college, despite their having significantly more restrictive policies I'm not sure how that is a benefit and I think a lot of people are mistaking the absence of rules with the absence of authority. The easiest way to get compliant people is to threaten them with punishment but not tell them what the rules are. They had 5 other students explain the nuances, rather than someone with authority because that way, they could still punish you for what those students told you was OK. It's essentially an open door for exertion of arbitrary power, but dressed up so the people welcome it as freedom. Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs, but the cops could still pull you over on a whim and ticket you for speeding. And you couldn't go to court to contest it because there are no rules, and we'd all be driving a whole lot slower. But at least we're being treated like responsible adults, right?

j_baker 16y ago
A lot of driving laws are "use your best judgement". For example, in Texas the speed limit is an advisory. You can go faster if you can make the case that it was safest for you to do so (like say you're in Dallas where everyone routinely drives at least 10 mph over the speed limit and driving slower would be a hazard).
pavel_lishin 16y ago
> Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs Haven't repeated experiments shown that this does, in fact, create safer roadways for cars, cyclists and pedestrians?
- sprout 16y ago
  No, they haven't. There was one recently linked on HN, but it was a fairly recent experiment, and it's far more likely to be attributable to the strangeness of it; people used to signs go into hyper-defensive-driver mode when they get to an area with no signs. You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    > You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes. [citation needed]
    - skushch 16y ago
      Have you ever had the chance to drive in a third-world country?
      - DuncanIdaho 16y ago
        I have - so what you're trying to get across is that the only difference between culture (driving or otherwise) in first and third world countries is in lack of necessary regulations in third world (traffic signs included)? I call bullshit on this. What does make a difference IMHO is having as few rules as necessary - BUT making sure that those few are sensible and respected. Thus - "Don't be a jackass" is a worthy and sufficient rule - if enforced thoroughly.
      - raquo 16y ago
        Moscow is as full of signs as it was 10 years ago, but nowadays people drive better because the fines have skyrocketed and the overall culture kind of increased.
  - latortuga 16y ago
    Your rebuttal appears to be unsubstantiated. I did some brief googling to see if I could find evidence one way or the other and came up with the article mentioned but little else in terms of studies or stats. Interesting theory though.
  - btilly 16y ago
    Looking at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3167372.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3... it looks like the increased safety effect was documented over a period of 25 years in over 100 different locations. That's strong enough data for me to strongly doubt your theory.
- alsomike 16y ago
  I agree, people are even more obedient in the absence of clear rules.
- mbuckbee 16y ago
  Here's an example about the "Montana: No Speed Limit Safety Paradox" - http://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox http://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety...
- gsk 16y ago
  These experiment do not prove much. For instance, it matters a great deal where these experiments were done. In all Indian cities (Bangalore, Delhi, etc), this "experiment" is being done all the time and the results are quite plain to see. There are more deaths and road accidents on these city roads than places with road signs and rules.
jrockway 16y ago
Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs, but the cops could still pull you over on a whim and ticket you for speeding. Already possible. If you are going 65 on a road marked as 65 but there is 100 foot visibility and black ice on the road, you are going to be pulled over. The speed limit is a limit, not "if you go this speed, you can't get a ticket".
lmkg 16y ago
While you are correct that Orwellian dictatorships are also well-served by not havinv explicit rules, having lived in this particular environment, I think your analysis is wrong. What happened was not that people were kept in line by fear of punishment. What happened was that people had regard for the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. If you ever caught yourself wondering if you were running afoul of the honor code, the internal monologue was not framed in terms of "will I get punished," but rather "am I harming others." Also, to counter another point: the administrators did not actually have the authority to punish students. The disciplinary board was student-run, and while I was not a part of that process, I am under the impression that the administration was pretty hands-off. While I don't remember for sure, it is very likely that the students giving the presentation were actually the ones with the authority.
- alsomike 16y ago
  I think you're missing that the very fact that you had to wonder if you were running afoul of the honor code is what makes people compliant. The Harvey Mudd honor code specifies "integrity" - but what does this mean? When there aren't clear definitions, people start to imitate others, especially those who are assumed to know what the rules really are. The punishment for violations doesn't even need to be explicit, the threat of being ostracized or losing face is a strong enough disincentive for many people. The fact that you internalized the values of the community means you perceived them as just, so for you, the self-policed rules were legitimate. And maybe they were legitimate. But here's a big problem: the administration is not operating transparently, they are counting on social behavior to control students according to a hidden set of rules that aren't up for discussion or debate, unlike an explicit rule book that could be questioned and contested. The problem with the disciplinary board follows the same logic: just as vague, open-ended rules create more compliant behavior, you should expect that a student-run disciplinary board will also penalize deviant behavior much more enthusiastic precisely because the administration is hands-off. The important question is whether the (explicit or implicit) rules are good rules, not whether you're permitted to self-police them. Self-policing may be more efficient, but the cost is less transparency and more conservative behavior.
  - 16y ago

j_baker 16y ago

A lot of driving laws are "use your best judgement". For example, in Texas the speed limit is an advisory. You can go faster if you can make the case that it was safest for you to do so (like say you're in Dallas where everyone routinely drives at least 10 mph over the speed limit and driving slower would be a hazard).

pavel_lishin 16y ago

> Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs Haven't repeated experiments shown that this does, in fact, create safer roadways for cars, cyclists and pedestrians?

sprout 16y ago
No, they haven't. There was one recently linked on HN, but it was a fairly recent experiment, and it's far more likely to be attributable to the strangeness of it; people used to signs go into hyper-defensive-driver mode when they get to an area with no signs. You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes. [citation needed]
  - skushch 16y ago
    Have you ever had the chance to drive in a third-world country?
    - DuncanIdaho 16y ago
      I have - so what you're trying to get across is that the only difference between culture (driving or otherwise) in first and third world countries is in lack of necessary regulations in third world (traffic signs included)? I call bullshit on this. What does make a difference IMHO is having as few rules as necessary - BUT making sure that those few are sensible and respected. Thus - "Don't be a jackass" is a worthy and sufficient rule - if enforced thoroughly.
    - raquo 16y ago
      Moscow is as full of signs as it was 10 years ago, but nowadays people drive better because the fines have skyrocketed and the overall culture kind of increased.
- latortuga 16y ago
  Your rebuttal appears to be unsubstantiated. I did some brief googling to see if I could find evidence one way or the other and came up with the article mentioned but little else in terms of studies or stats. Interesting theory though.
- btilly 16y ago
  Looking at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3167372.ece http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3... it looks like the increased safety effect was documented over a period of 25 years in over 100 different locations. That's strong enough data for me to strongly doubt your theory.
alsomike 16y ago
I agree, people are even more obedient in the absence of clear rules.
mbuckbee 16y ago
Here's an example about the "Montana: No Speed Limit Safety Paradox" - http://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox http://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety...
gsk 16y ago
These experiment do not prove much. For instance, it matters a great deal where these experiments were done. In all Indian cities (Bangalore, Delhi, etc), this "experiment" is being done all the time and the results are quite plain to see. There are more deaths and road accidents on these city roads than places with road signs and rules.

jrockway 16y ago

Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs, but the cops could still pull you over on a whim and ticket you for speeding. Already possible. If you are going 65 on a road marked as 65 but there is 100 foot visibility and black ice on the road, you are going to be pulled over. The speed limit is a limit, not "if you go this speed, you can't get a ticket".

lmkg 16y ago

While you are correct that Orwellian dictatorships are also well-served by not havinv explicit rules, having lived in this particular environment, I think your analysis is wrong. What happened was not that people were kept in line by fear of punishment. What happened was that people had regard for the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. If you ever caught yourself wondering if you were running afoul of the honor code, the internal monologue was not framed in terms of "will I get punished," but rather "am I harming others." Also, to counter another point: the administrators did not actually have the authority to punish students. The disciplinary board was student-run, and while I was not a part of that process, I am under the impression that the administration was pretty hands-off. While I don't remember for sure, it is very likely that the students giving the presentation were actually the ones with the authority.

alsomike 16y ago
I think you're missing that the very fact that you had to wonder if you were running afoul of the honor code is what makes people compliant. The Harvey Mudd honor code specifies "integrity" - but what does this mean? When there aren't clear definitions, people start to imitate others, especially those who are assumed to know what the rules really are. The punishment for violations doesn't even need to be explicit, the threat of being ostracized or losing face is a strong enough disincentive for many people. The fact that you internalized the values of the community means you perceived them as just, so for you, the self-policed rules were legitimate. And maybe they were legitimate. But here's a big problem: the administration is not operating transparently, they are counting on social behavior to control students according to a hidden set of rules that aren't up for discussion or debate, unlike an explicit rule book that could be questioned and contested. The problem with the disciplinary board follows the same logic: just as vague, open-ended rules create more compliant behavior, you should expect that a student-run disciplinary board will also penalize deviant behavior much more enthusiastic precisely because the administration is hands-off. The important question is whether the (explicit or implicit) rules are good rules, not whether you're permitted to self-police them. Self-policing may be more efficient, but the cost is less transparency and more conservative behavior.
- 16y ago