3 ms·

No, not necessarily the latest “cool tech”, just something other than Java. Just because you’ve spent a lot of money and time on the Java platform doesn’t mean

No, not necessarily the latest “cool tech”, just something other than Java. Just because you’ve spent a lot of money and time on the Java platform doesn’t mean continuing to throw resources at it isn’t a example of the sunk cost fallacy at work.

kjeetgill 8y ago
Sunk Cost Fallacy? Sounds like the fallacy fallacy! [0][1]. Joking aside, that's incredibly misapplied. More seriously, I'm curious where you work or what parts of the industry you're privy to. It's everywhere from where I'm standing. Tons of companies are built on millions of jvms. LinkedIn, Google, Twitter, Amazon, etc. I know personally but I'm sure every third other tech company in the valley at least too. [0]: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
- chris_wot 8y ago
  I'll take your fallacy fallacy and raise you a fallacy fallacy fallacy. Just to remind you, there was an entire industry built around Flash and Silverlight too. The people responding to me seem to think I'm advocating a quick rewrite (whatever that means), but all I'm saying is that from where I stand Java will not last in the long term without serious changes within Oracle. It would be better to have a transition plan now than no transition plan on a dying platform. I was sort of expecting to be flamed, but I can assure you I'm not interested in revealing to flamers where I work...
  - haglin 8y ago
    Curious, what change within Oracle do you want to see? Java is still free, so it can't be that.
simion314 8y ago
So your boss comes to you and says that the users want some new feature X, you will say that it will take your 3 years since you need to rewrite everything in Rust or Go and I would say I can do it by using library or CLI app X and integrating in our project, it could take a few days. What do you think will happen? Do you think that a sane boss will approve you wasting resources to port it to cool tech X instead of fixing the current needs. The only projects that have no choice and must do a porting are Flash based projects because soon will be probably impossible to get regular users to have Flash in a browser.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  That's kind of my point really. When, as I believe is going to happen, Java inevitably becomes unusable, unmaintainable or costly to license (we are talking about Oracle here) then a new project to replace the existing system will inevitably be commissioned. All I am saying is that good management is to look at the risks of sticking with Java and find a migration path earlier, because the longer you wait the more expensive it becomes to move away. And one day you will find you have no choice, and then it will be very expensive. It is possible to maintain and even add essential features to a legacy system whilst migrating to a new system. Happens all the time.
  - simion314 8y ago
    The probloem is that you do not understand Java ecosystem and you are spreading FUD, First of all you have OpenJDK that is part of Debian, everyone knows that Debian is very strict about licensing so if it is part of Debian there will be nothing that will make Java retroactively unusable without a paid license.
    - chris_wot 8y ago
      I never mentioned licensing.
      - simion314 8y ago

kjeetgill 8y ago

Sunk Cost Fallacy? Sounds like the fallacy fallacy! [0][1]. Joking aside, that's incredibly misapplied. More seriously, I'm curious where you work or what parts of the industry you're privy to. It's everywhere from where I'm standing. Tons of companies are built on millions of jvms. LinkedIn, Google, Twitter, Amazon, etc. I know personally but I'm sure every third other tech company in the valley at least too. [0]: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

chris_wot 8y ago
I'll take your fallacy fallacy and raise you a fallacy fallacy fallacy. Just to remind you, there was an entire industry built around Flash and Silverlight too. The people responding to me seem to think I'm advocating a quick rewrite (whatever that means), but all I'm saying is that from where I stand Java will not last in the long term without serious changes within Oracle. It would be better to have a transition plan now than no transition plan on a dying platform. I was sort of expecting to be flamed, but I can assure you I'm not interested in revealing to flamers where I work...
- haglin 8y ago
  Curious, what change within Oracle do you want to see? Java is still free, so it can't be that.

simion314 8y ago

So your boss comes to you and says that the users want some new feature X, you will say that it will take your 3 years since you need to rewrite everything in Rust or Go and I would say I can do it by using library or CLI app X and integrating in our project, it could take a few days. What do you think will happen? Do you think that a sane boss will approve you wasting resources to port it to cool tech X instead of fixing the current needs. The only projects that have no choice and must do a porting are Flash based projects because soon will be probably impossible to get regular users to have Flash in a browser.

chris_wot 8y ago
That's kind of my point really. When, as I believe is going to happen, Java inevitably becomes unusable, unmaintainable or costly to license (we are talking about Oracle here) then a new project to replace the existing system will inevitably be commissioned. All I am saying is that good management is to look at the risks of sticking with Java and find a migration path earlier, because the longer you wait the more expensive it becomes to move away. And one day you will find you have no choice, and then it will be very expensive. It is possible to maintain and even add essential features to a legacy system whilst migrating to a new system. Happens all the time.
- simion314 8y ago
  The probloem is that you do not understand Java ecosystem and you are spreading FUD, First of all you have OpenJDK that is part of Debian, everyone knows that Debian is very strict about licensing so if it is part of Debian there will be nothing that will make Java retroactively unusable without a paid license.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    I never mentioned licensing.
    - simion314 8y ago