8 ms·

This is how my college worked, and I think it's a fabulous idea that promotes personal responsibility rather than CYA bullshit. During orientation, all the inco

by lmkg 16y ago

This is how my college worked, and I think it's a fabulous idea that promotes personal responsibility rather than CYA bullshit. During orientation, all the incoming freshmen (~200) were herded into a lecture hall, and a panel of five upperclassmen pontificated on the significance and nuances of the phrase "don't be a jackass." And that was basically it. We could drink as much alcohol as we wanted, we were just expected not to get into fights, break other people's stuff, get sent to the hospital, or otherwise do things that we or someone else would regret. We could burn quite a wide variety of things, in bulk, so long as no one got hurt. We were given unrestricted 24-hour access to computer labs, chemistry equipment, etc. Most of my exams were take-home, and we were expected to adhere to the rules (time limit, closed-book) because that was the cost of the privilege. We could pull all sorts of pranks against others students and even faculty, so long as we left contact information and any effects were reversible within 24 hours. We were expected to be responsible adults, and were treated like responsible adults, so we acted like responsible adults (well, we acted responsibly anyways). We actually had less alcohol-related incidents (assaults, property damage, alcohol poisoning) than any nearby college, despite (read: because of) their having significantly more restrictive policies. Like Nordstrom's, we did have to make a few concessions to the outside world, though they were few and far between. For example, we were not allowed to have bonfires that were taller than the dorms, because then women's college across the street thinks the school is on fire. The administration is totally fine with 50 mildly inebriated college students milling around an open flame in the middle of a dorm courtyard with no "adult" supervision, but they still don't like explaining it to the local fire department.

j_baker 16y ago
Which college did you go to? Going to college in Texas, I think even suggesting some of these ideas would have given my university's administrators a heart attack.
- masterj 16y ago
  It sounds a good bit like Rice a decade ago actually. They're a bit more strict on the pranks ("jacks") these days, and some of the other things are becoming a little more restricted as the university gets larger, but it still mostly applies.
markbao 16y ago
What college do you go to? I'm transferring this year and... inquiring minds want to know.
- jacobolus 16y ago
  Sounds an awful lot like Harvey Mudd. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Mudd_College#The_HMC_honor_code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Mudd_College#The_HMC_hon... To the grandparent: having grown up in Claremont, I can tell you that the reason Harvey Mudd has less problems with alcohol than the other Claremont colleges is almost completely a result of which students it accepts rather than its honor code.
  - jacobolus 16y ago
    (Though I think the HMC honor code is fantastic, and I’m sure that it is part of the cause of student self-selection: a certain type of person is likely to apply to a school with such a culture.)
  - lmkg 16y ago
    Correct, I went to Harvey Mudd. What you say certainly has some truth to it, and I am skeptical this policy would work for the population at large. However, the other colleges (especially Pomona) are also pretty selective in their admissions, and there is a significant overlap in student life between the various colleges. While Mudd's honor code may not work as well with other student populations, I also think that other regulatory systems would not work as well with that student population. For one thing, it's essentially a college of hackers (in the HN sense), so having a stricter or more explicit set of rules would probably result in "creative" ways of following the letter of the law, with less regards to the spirit.
  - rfrey 16y ago
    Can you expand on what you mean? I can't imagine that either test scores or economic status is correlated with jack-assery, although I guess it's possible. If I were forming an experiment, in fact, my hypothesis would be that the latter is positively correlated (but I doubt it would pan out).
alsomike 16y ago
We actually had less alcohol-related incidents than any nearby college, despite their having significantly more restrictive policies I'm not sure how that is a benefit and I think a lot of people are mistaking the absence of rules with the absence of authority. The easiest way to get compliant people is to threaten them with punishment but not tell them what the rules are. They had 5 other students explain the nuances, rather than someone with authority because that way, they could still punish you for what those students told you was OK. It's essentially an open door for exertion of arbitrary power, but dressed up so the people welcome it as freedom. Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs, but the cops could still pull you over on a whim and ticket you for speeding. And you couldn't go to court to contest it because there are no rules, and we'd all be driving a whole lot slower. But at least we're being treated like responsible adults, right?
- j_baker 16y ago
  A lot of driving laws are "use your best judgement". For example, in Texas the speed limit is an advisory. You can go faster if you can make the case that it was safest for you to do so (like say you're in Dallas where everyone routinely drives at least 10 mph over the speed limit and driving slower would be a hazard).
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  > Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs Haven't repeated experiments shown that this does, in fact, create safer roadways for cars, cyclists and pedestrians?
  - sprout 16y ago
    No, they haven't. There was one recently linked on HN, but it was a fairly recent experiment, and it's far more likely to be attributable to the strangeness of it; people used to signs go into hyper-defensive-driver mode when they get to an area with no signs. You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes.
geoffbp 16y ago
Good post, thanks :) I have a similar point to this relating to young children (under the age of 15 and over 5 I guess), allowing a child to have what they want, go where they like and do what they want (within reason), this gift of freedom seems to make the child mature faster or think/act differently. For example a child given the opportunity to go out late at night before being old enough for nightclubs, who isn't worried about rules that say 'be home by X' or 'no alcohol!' is more likely to find what they enjoy naturally instead of breaking rules just to spite their parents. Another example, given the option to drink fizzy drinks all day or water, a child doesn't take long to realize water is a better option most of the time. Most of this is from first hand experience, I think these ideas rely on a reasonably smart child/parent and an open & trusting relationship. The parent must still provide direction on what is right/wrong and communicate ideas. </OT>

by lmkg 16y ago

j_baker 16y ago

Which college did you go to? Going to college in Texas, I think even suggesting some of these ideas would have given my university's administrators a heart attack.

masterj 16y ago
It sounds a good bit like Rice a decade ago actually. They're a bit more strict on the pranks ("jacks") these days, and some of the other things are becoming a little more restricted as the university gets larger, but it still mostly applies.

markbao 16y ago

What college do you go to? I'm transferring this year and... inquiring minds want to know.

jacobolus 16y ago
Sounds an awful lot like Harvey Mudd. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Mudd_College#The_HMC_honor_code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Mudd_College#The_HMC_hon... To the grandparent: having grown up in Claremont, I can tell you that the reason Harvey Mudd has less problems with alcohol than the other Claremont colleges is almost completely a result of which students it accepts rather than its honor code.
- jacobolus 16y ago
  (Though I think the HMC honor code is fantastic, and I’m sure that it is part of the cause of student self-selection: a certain type of person is likely to apply to a school with such a culture.)
- lmkg 16y ago
  Correct, I went to Harvey Mudd. What you say certainly has some truth to it, and I am skeptical this policy would work for the population at large. However, the other colleges (especially Pomona) are also pretty selective in their admissions, and there is a significant overlap in student life between the various colleges. While Mudd's honor code may not work as well with other student populations, I also think that other regulatory systems would not work as well with that student population. For one thing, it's essentially a college of hackers (in the HN sense), so having a stricter or more explicit set of rules would probably result in "creative" ways of following the letter of the law, with less regards to the spirit.
- rfrey 16y ago
  Can you expand on what you mean? I can't imagine that either test scores or economic status is correlated with jack-assery, although I guess it's possible. If I were forming an experiment, in fact, my hypothesis would be that the latter is positively correlated (but I doubt it would pan out).

alsomike 16y ago

We actually had less alcohol-related incidents than any nearby college, despite their having significantly more restrictive policies I'm not sure how that is a benefit and I think a lot of people are mistaking the absence of rules with the absence of authority. The easiest way to get compliant people is to threaten them with punishment but not tell them what the rules are. They had 5 other students explain the nuances, rather than someone with authority because that way, they could still punish you for what those students told you was OK. It's essentially an open door for exertion of arbitrary power, but dressed up so the people welcome it as freedom. Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs, but the cops could still pull you over on a whim and ticket you for speeding. And you couldn't go to court to contest it because there are no rules, and we'd all be driving a whole lot slower. But at least we're being treated like responsible adults, right?

j_baker 16y ago
A lot of driving laws are "use your best judgement". For example, in Texas the speed limit is an advisory. You can go faster if you can make the case that it was safest for you to do so (like say you're in Dallas where everyone routinely drives at least 10 mph over the speed limit and driving slower would be a hazard).
pavel_lishin 16y ago
> Imagine if traffic laws were "use your own judgment" - no speeding signs Haven't repeated experiments shown that this does, in fact, create safer roadways for cars, cyclists and pedestrians?
- sprout 16y ago
  No, they haven't. There was one recently linked on HN, but it was a fairly recent experiment, and it's far more likely to be attributable to the strangeness of it; people used to signs go into hyper-defensive-driver mode when they get to an area with no signs. You take away signs entirely the novelty wears off and people go back to driving like assholes.

geoffbp 16y ago

Good post, thanks :) I have a similar point to this relating to young children (under the age of 15 and over 5 I guess), allowing a child to have what they want, go where they like and do what they want (within reason), this gift of freedom seems to make the child mature faster or think/act differently. For example a child given the opportunity to go out late at night before being old enough for nightclubs, who isn't worried about rules that say 'be home by X' or 'no alcohol!' is more likely to find what they enjoy naturally instead of breaking rules just to spite their parents. Another example, given the option to drink fizzy drinks all day or water, a child doesn't take long to realize water is a better option most of the time. Most of this is from first hand experience, I think these ideas rely on a reasonably smart child/parent and an open & trusting relationship. The parent must still provide direction on what is right/wrong and communicate ideas. </OT>