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Counterexample: A poor man finds a magic lamp. He summons the genie, and wishes for great fortune. (Rags to riches.) He makes another wish, and it horribly bac

by mrob 8y ago

Counterexample: A poor man finds a magic lamp. He summons the genie, and wishes for great fortune. (Rags to riches.) He makes another wish, and it horribly backfires. (Icarus.) No longer trusting genies, he wishes he'd never found the lamp. The genie rewinds time. A poor man finds a magic lamp.... (Infinite loop plot not included in the classification.) EDIT: Downvoter, how would you classify this story?

keybuk 8y ago
Depends which season of Star Trek it's from. Early in the run it'll come across as kinda corny, but mid-way through the run it'll be a strong episode and one fans will cite as a favorite forever.
MrTonyD 8y ago
It took me a while to figure out that on HN you get downvoted if you aren't agreed with or your opinion is disliked - quite often nothing to do with any actual intellectual argument. I've learned to ignore all the downvotes that I get - they are meaningless, and usually associated with what I consider to be my more insightful posts. (Since more insight implies that more other people haven't made the same observation - thus more downvotes.)
__s 8y ago
That's alright, next you need to make the sequence normal so that it's never repeating Another counter example: https://serprex.github.io/w/Ad%20nauseum%20ad%20nauseum https://serprex.github.io/w/Ad%20nauseum%20ad%20nauseum This is a story I started writing last year, it doesn't have rises & falls, just someone reminiscing on the way to the corner store for a bag of chips If my writing doesn't count since it's just some random page on the internet, there's Bob Dylan's Tarantula, & he's won a Nobel for literature. You'll be forced to say "Every story has one these six basic plots, where a story must have a plot, & a plot must be composed of rises & falls" since anything that would go against that gets categorized as a "sub story" or "not part of the story"
kbutler 8y ago
"goto start" doesn't make it a new story, it's just a repeat, or re-telling of the story (possibly with variations, a la groundhog day) I also disagree with the contention that all "stories" have to fit the patterns, unless you narrow the definition of story to fit the patterns.
lozenge 8y ago
The timeline may be an infinite loop but your story still ended, with the revelation that the man is doomed to repeat his Icarus story for everytime. An author could play that as a sad or happy ending, as they like.
- jon_richards 8y ago
  Not if it's a goosebumps novel (they have you jump to specific pages based on choices you make).
sacado2 8y ago
There's a traditional variant of this schema: A poor man uses all his money to buy a horse. "You must be happy", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. The next day, the horse escapes. "Your hard-earned money, and your horse, both gone. You must be sad", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. A few days later, the horse comes back, with a female horse. "Now you have two horses, and very soon a third one. You must be happy", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. The next day, the man's son tries to care about the new horse, but the horse rebels and the son has his leg broken. "That's your only son, and know he won't be able to work or provide for you in your old days anymore. You must be sad". "I don't know", answers the man. A few days later, this is war. All young men must leave and go to war. Since the man's son is injured, he doesn't have to go. "Your son won't have to face the horror of war. How good for both of you ! I wish my own son was still there with me". Some versions of the story stop there, but it can keep going, and end either on a positive event or on a negative one. Basically, this is a story about how you can never know if an event will be good or bad, no matter the first impression. It cannot fit any of those story patterns.
- talltimtom 8y ago
  > it cannot fit any of these story patterns. Of cause it can, just because you have a character proclaim he doesn’t know doesn’t suddenly make it so. The curve goes down when his son breaks his leg and it goes up when he doesn’t have to join the army. There is no requirement to integrate all future development into the current state of the curve.
  - sacado2 8y ago
    Which one is it then? Oedipus? Cinderella? Man in the hole? That story looks like a perfect sine wave, and has no defined ending (I heard it with more or less steps). It does not fit any of those 6 predefined patterns.
- pssflops 8y ago
  "There are two tragedies in life. One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman
brenschluss 8y ago
Also see: Finnagans Wake, which is a loop of a story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake

by mrob 8y ago

keybuk 8y ago

Depends which season of Star Trek it's from. Early in the run it'll come across as kinda corny, but mid-way through the run it'll be a strong episode and one fans will cite as a favorite forever.

MrTonyD 8y ago

It took me a while to figure out that on HN you get downvoted if you aren't agreed with or your opinion is disliked - quite often nothing to do with any actual intellectual argument. I've learned to ignore all the downvotes that I get - they are meaningless, and usually associated with what I consider to be my more insightful posts. (Since more insight implies that more other people haven't made the same observation - thus more downvotes.)

__s 8y ago

That's alright, next you need to make the sequence normal so that it's never repeating Another counter example: https://serprex.github.io/w/Ad%20nauseum%20ad%20nauseum https://serprex.github.io/w/Ad%20nauseum%20ad%20nauseum This is a story I started writing last year, it doesn't have rises & falls, just someone reminiscing on the way to the corner store for a bag of chips If my writing doesn't count since it's just some random page on the internet, there's Bob Dylan's Tarantula, & he's won a Nobel for literature. You'll be forced to say "Every story has one these six basic plots, where a story must have a plot, & a plot must be composed of rises & falls" since anything that would go against that gets categorized as a "sub story" or "not part of the story"

kbutler 8y ago

"goto start" doesn't make it a new story, it's just a repeat, or re-telling of the story (possibly with variations, a la groundhog day) I also disagree with the contention that all "stories" have to fit the patterns, unless you narrow the definition of story to fit the patterns.

lozenge 8y ago

The timeline may be an infinite loop but your story still ended, with the revelation that the man is doomed to repeat his Icarus story for everytime. An author could play that as a sad or happy ending, as they like.

jon_richards 8y ago
Not if it's a goosebumps novel (they have you jump to specific pages based on choices you make).

sacado2 8y ago

There's a traditional variant of this schema: A poor man uses all his money to buy a horse. "You must be happy", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. The next day, the horse escapes. "Your hard-earned money, and your horse, both gone. You must be sad", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. A few days later, the horse comes back, with a female horse. "Now you have two horses, and very soon a third one. You must be happy", his neighbor says. "I don't know", answers the man. The next day, the man's son tries to care about the new horse, but the horse rebels and the son has his leg broken. "That's your only son, and know he won't be able to work or provide for you in your old days anymore. You must be sad". "I don't know", answers the man. A few days later, this is war. All young men must leave and go to war. Since the man's son is injured, he doesn't have to go. "Your son won't have to face the horror of war. How good for both of you ! I wish my own son was still there with me". Some versions of the story stop there, but it can keep going, and end either on a positive event or on a negative one. Basically, this is a story about how you can never know if an event will be good or bad, no matter the first impression. It cannot fit any of those story patterns.

talltimtom 8y ago
> it cannot fit any of these story patterns. Of cause it can, just because you have a character proclaim he doesn’t know doesn’t suddenly make it so. The curve goes down when his son breaks his leg and it goes up when he doesn’t have to join the army. There is no requirement to integrate all future development into the current state of the curve.
- sacado2 8y ago
  Which one is it then? Oedipus? Cinderella? Man in the hole? That story looks like a perfect sine wave, and has no defined ending (I heard it with more or less steps). It does not fit any of those 6 predefined patterns.
pssflops 8y ago
"There are two tragedies in life. One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

brenschluss 8y ago

Also see: Finnagans Wake, which is a loop of a story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake