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Definitely agree with your decision. After leaving slack entirely from a robotics team and a science club, our productively increased. No longer were we going

by sdan 8y ago

Definitely agree with your decision. After leaving slack entirely from a robotics team and a science club, our productively increased. No longer were we going off topic wasting precious time and making everyone in the channel read every 500+ messages some people engaged in. We instead chose to make more plans during meetings and through direct chat (Messenger). However, Slack is usefull for forums such as donkeycar.slack.com where many hobbists come in and have questions on this software/hardware project. Slack is easily accessible for anyone to ask questions and with proper use, I was pretty productive in communicating effectively across channels. Despite this, I believe that slack in general is a waste of time in a TEAM. Why not have meetings or meet up in real life rather than hiding behind a screen without any physical interaction? Slack, however, is a great alternative for forums since there is great searching capabilities within channels and there's always someone there to help.

ekanes 8y ago
Slack's value isn't communication efficiency. It's value is in enabling people to feel more part of a team. It's a culture tool as much as a communication tool.
andybak 8y ago
> where many hobbists come in and have questions on this software/hardware project I'm rather baffled by the use of chat for this kind of problem. (and I never clicked with IRC either) So - I've got a problem and I come to a chat channel. It's probably been asked before. If I'm lucky I'll find my answer in a searchable chat archive and I won't need to visit at all. Otherwise I face two options: 1. Scroll back and try and find any previous mentions. Nearly impossible in my experience. 2. Ask my question and hope that people aren't sick of hearing it. If I'm lucky enough that a) someone is present who knows the answer and b) they respond in a timely manner then I still face the problem that - assuming it's busy enough for a and b to be likely - then my conversation is interspersed with several unrelated discussions. Also - the person helping me is likely to go quiet for long periods or disappear altogether because most probably they are doing other stuff. Note that the final flaw (the interleaving of discussions) is a problem in all cases. Now - can someone explain to me how this is better than a forum or Stack Overflow style site?
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Re: searching, I like Gitter for that - they have their chat history out in public, indexed by Google.
- bovermyer 8y ago
  I think forums are a better solution for this kind of problem. However, forums suffer from two crippling problems: 1. It's really hard to find active forums (discoverability), and 2. Forums are often overwhelmed with spam and security problems (integrity). If those two problems could be solved, or at least mitigated better, then forums might make a comeback.
- tjoff 8y ago
  I occasionally I find them very usable. Before you ask on IRC (on a channel you haven't visited before) you will google it extensively. If the question is either a quick question that anyone in the know can answer directly with a yes/no like answer then IRC can be a good option. But I especially find that IRC is better for very niche questions that won't benefit anyone else (and won't have been asked before) that also requires some back-and-forth debug style to get to the bottom of it. Similar to problems where email doesn't work and you need make a call instead. A ten minute call can sometimes save you a week of emails if they are not quick enough to answer (common with large timezone differences). Also much quicker, you either get the answer or you don't, either way both are good to know (so that you know to try something else).
- lmm 8y ago
  1. Those interleaved discussions are what makes it a worthwhile hangout for experienced users. 2. Conversely, they also mean that maybe you'll help someone else out while you're waiting. 3. It's easier to diagnose a problem in an informal back-and-forth than in the writing-for-posterity style that SO and fora encourage.
  - stedaniels 8y ago
    Chat might be ok for facilitating diagnosis, but when I'm searching for help I want an SO style answer. Bear in mind I've been doing IRC for a couple of decades, so it's not lack of experience.
GranPC 8y ago
> Why not have meetings or meet up in real life rather than hiding behind a screen without any physical interaction? Well, that's pretty hard to do if you're working remotely!
beberlei 8y ago
Author here. I agree about forums and "hobbyiest communities". I had a paragraph on this in the post, and how I manage them by muting most of the channels and reading up later. Removed the paragraph for simplicity :-) Meetings are also bad productivity killer and if you are co-located in an office you must be careful not to summon ad-hoc meetings that interrupt one participant from their deep work.
jasode 8y ago
>, I believe that slack in general is a waste of time in a TEAM. Why not have meetings or meet up in real life rather than hiding behind a screen without any physical interaction? In the book "Facebook Effect" by David Kirkpatrick[1], one programmer described how Mark Zuckerberg and the other programmers extensively chatted on AOL AIM even though they all sat at the same table elbow-to-elbow. When one of the new programmers responded to one of MZ's chat texts by just looking up and vocalizing an answer, MZ didn't look away from his laptop to respond. Basically, the new programmer unintentionally broke the silence etiquette. The early Facebook team was using chat as virtual hallway conversations. It seems the "correct" way to use realtime chat depends on differing personalities? [1] there was more than one chat story in the book and this was one of them (but don't know for sure if Google Books link will show you the page excerpt): https://books.google.com/books?id=PxTvbM-VCPEC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=%22facebook+effect%22+%22zuckerberg+preferred+instant+messaging%22+aim&source=bl&ots=DUh5tTQV2m&sig=XmvB9UwpXVgLmp0d1LXdvJdkDVs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlhYSb3aneAhUBO60KHfuSDh8Q6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22facebook%20effect%22%20%22zuckerberg%20preferred%20instant%20messaging%22%20aim&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=PxTvbM-VCPEC&pg=PA137&lpg=...
- jey 8y ago
  Yeah. When minimizing off-topic chatter and using the chat features carefully (e.g. threads or private messages in addition to channels), chat hits a perfect balance of immediate but asynchronous coordination.
- imsofuture 8y ago
  Every in-office job I've had has been the same way. Not that we didn't ever talk in person, but so much of the normal communication happened over text, even if we were in the same room.
- closeparen 8y ago
  Did FB really start with library rules? My understanding is it’s the opposite now, stretching the limits of construction technology to build the largest possible open office.
  - 8y ago
TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
I'd also suggest giving Discord [0] a try. There's a few tech communities that have migrated from Slack to Discord, with one of the main benefits being that you can access and search the full history for free. It also uses fewer resources and it's overall snappier in my experience. The top example that comes to mind is Reactiflux [1], which at the time of migration I believe was one of the largest free Slack servers. IMO, Slack can be pretty great for remote teams, although I agree you can definitely abuse it too hard and end up wasting time. One benefit of using text chat to have a discussion is that it you can easily scan through it and reference any section. There's also certain kinds of discussions which I think are easier to have through text, especially when you want to provide references and examples. It also makes it easier for introverts and non-fluent speakers to participate. On the other hand, physical discussions are hard to beat when you're whiteboarding or drawing diagrams, especially if you're still exploring the problem domain. You don't have to limit yourself to any single discussion format. [0] https://discordapp.com/ https://discordapp.com/ [1] https://www.reactiflux.com/ https://www.reactiflux.com/
paulie_a 8y ago
Slack is useful for group chat of 3-5 people. Occasionally a channel will have useful information. And then it's mostly important for coordinating lunch and sharing funny links. I'd say it's a 50/50 on work related and just screwing around. And sidenote I am not sure where term "ping you" came from, but it needs to go away. It honestly conveys the message I don't need to or want to talk to the person that said it.
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  > I am not sure where term "ping you" came from I assume it's like using sports euphemisms in the office to convey a concept... this is likely a military euphemism (from radar/sonar). On one hand I don't mind it because it removes the specifics about how the person will contact you, it just simply states that they will contact you (and the method may vary depending on the time of day/week). Sure, there are other ways to say that, just as there are other ways to say something is "on deck" or you're "punting" a decision.
  - saalweachter 8y ago
    I assumed it was from the networking 'ping'.
    - SnootyMonkey 8y ago
      As did I. Actually, it never occurred to me that it could have come from anywhere else.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      I kind of figured, but that terminology and specific phrasing in the tech world is obnoxious and pretentious. Just say "hey can we talk later?" No need to use to buzzword terms to ask for a simple conversation. Honestly, I hardly acknowledge those ping requests anymore. I'm sure there is a packet loss pun, but it's late and I'm tired.
    - bonestamp2 8y ago
      Right, but don't you think that was named after radar/sonar pings too?

by sdan 8y ago

ekanes 8y ago

Slack's value isn't communication efficiency. It's value is in enabling people to feel more part of a team. It's a culture tool as much as a communication tool.

andybak 8y ago

> where many hobbists come in and have questions on this software/hardware project I'm rather baffled by the use of chat for this kind of problem. (and I never clicked with IRC either) So - I've got a problem and I come to a chat channel. It's probably been asked before. If I'm lucky I'll find my answer in a searchable chat archive and I won't need to visit at all. Otherwise I face two options: 1. Scroll back and try and find any previous mentions. Nearly impossible in my experience. 2. Ask my question and hope that people aren't sick of hearing it. If I'm lucky enough that a) someone is present who knows the answer and b) they respond in a timely manner then I still face the problem that - assuming it's busy enough for a and b to be likely - then my conversation is interspersed with several unrelated discussions. Also - the person helping me is likely to go quiet for long periods or disappear altogether because most probably they are doing other stuff. Note that the final flaw (the interleaving of discussions) is a problem in all cases. Now - can someone explain to me how this is better than a forum or Stack Overflow style site?

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Re: searching, I like Gitter for that - they have their chat history out in public, indexed by Google.
bovermyer 8y ago
I think forums are a better solution for this kind of problem. However, forums suffer from two crippling problems: 1. It's really hard to find active forums (discoverability), and 2. Forums are often overwhelmed with spam and security problems (integrity). If those two problems could be solved, or at least mitigated better, then forums might make a comeback.
tjoff 8y ago
I occasionally I find them very usable. Before you ask on IRC (on a channel you haven't visited before) you will google it extensively. If the question is either a quick question that anyone in the know can answer directly with a yes/no like answer then IRC can be a good option. But I especially find that IRC is better for very niche questions that won't benefit anyone else (and won't have been asked before) that also requires some back-and-forth debug style to get to the bottom of it. Similar to problems where email doesn't work and you need make a call instead. A ten minute call can sometimes save you a week of emails if they are not quick enough to answer (common with large timezone differences). Also much quicker, you either get the answer or you don't, either way both are good to know (so that you know to try something else).
lmm 8y ago
1. Those interleaved discussions are what makes it a worthwhile hangout for experienced users. 2. Conversely, they also mean that maybe you'll help someone else out while you're waiting. 3. It's easier to diagnose a problem in an informal back-and-forth than in the writing-for-posterity style that SO and fora encourage.
- stedaniels 8y ago
  Chat might be ok for facilitating diagnosis, but when I'm searching for help I want an SO style answer. Bear in mind I've been doing IRC for a couple of decades, so it's not lack of experience.

GranPC 8y ago

> Why not have meetings or meet up in real life rather than hiding behind a screen without any physical interaction? Well, that's pretty hard to do if you're working remotely!

beberlei 8y ago

Author here. I agree about forums and "hobbyiest communities". I had a paragraph on this in the post, and how I manage them by muting most of the channels and reading up later. Removed the paragraph for simplicity :-) Meetings are also bad productivity killer and if you are co-located in an office you must be careful not to summon ad-hoc meetings that interrupt one participant from their deep work.

jasode 8y ago

>, I believe that slack in general is a waste of time in a TEAM. Why not have meetings or meet up in real life rather than hiding behind a screen without any physical interaction? In the book "Facebook Effect" by David Kirkpatrick[1], one programmer described how Mark Zuckerberg and the other programmers extensively chatted on AOL AIM even though they all sat at the same table elbow-to-elbow. When one of the new programmers responded to one of MZ's chat texts by just looking up and vocalizing an answer, MZ didn't look away from his laptop to respond. Basically, the new programmer unintentionally broke the silence etiquette. The early Facebook team was using chat as virtual hallway conversations. It seems the "correct" way to use realtime chat depends on differing personalities? [1] there was more than one chat story in the book and this was one of them (but don't know for sure if Google Books link will show you the page excerpt): https://books.google.com/books?id=PxTvbM-VCPEC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=%22facebook+effect%22+%22zuckerberg+preferred+instant+messaging%22+aim&source=bl&ots=DUh5tTQV2m&sig=XmvB9UwpXVgLmp0d1LXdvJdkDVs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlhYSb3aneAhUBO60KHfuSDh8Q6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22facebook%20effect%22%20%22zuckerberg%20preferred%20instant%20messaging%22%20aim&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=PxTvbM-VCPEC&pg=PA137&lpg=...

jey 8y ago
Yeah. When minimizing off-topic chatter and using the chat features carefully (e.g. threads or private messages in addition to channels), chat hits a perfect balance of immediate but asynchronous coordination.
imsofuture 8y ago
Every in-office job I've had has been the same way. Not that we didn't ever talk in person, but so much of the normal communication happened over text, even if we were in the same room.
closeparen 8y ago
Did FB really start with library rules? My understanding is it’s the opposite now, stretching the limits of construction technology to build the largest possible open office.
- 8y ago

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

I'd also suggest giving Discord [0] a try. There's a few tech communities that have migrated from Slack to Discord, with one of the main benefits being that you can access and search the full history for free. It also uses fewer resources and it's overall snappier in my experience. The top example that comes to mind is Reactiflux [1], which at the time of migration I believe was one of the largest free Slack servers. IMO, Slack can be pretty great for remote teams, although I agree you can definitely abuse it too hard and end up wasting time. One benefit of using text chat to have a discussion is that it you can easily scan through it and reference any section. There's also certain kinds of discussions which I think are easier to have through text, especially when you want to provide references and examples. It also makes it easier for introverts and non-fluent speakers to participate. On the other hand, physical discussions are hard to beat when you're whiteboarding or drawing diagrams, especially if you're still exploring the problem domain. You don't have to limit yourself to any single discussion format. [0] https://discordapp.com/ https://discordapp.com/ [1] https://www.reactiflux.com/ https://www.reactiflux.com/

paulie_a 8y ago

Slack is useful for group chat of 3-5 people. Occasionally a channel will have useful information. And then it's mostly important for coordinating lunch and sharing funny links. I'd say it's a 50/50 on work related and just screwing around. And sidenote I am not sure where term "ping you" came from, but it needs to go away. It honestly conveys the message I don't need to or want to talk to the person that said it.

bonestamp2 8y ago
> I am not sure where term "ping you" came from I assume it's like using sports euphemisms in the office to convey a concept... this is likely a military euphemism (from radar/sonar). On one hand I don't mind it because it removes the specifics about how the person will contact you, it just simply states that they will contact you (and the method may vary depending on the time of day/week). Sure, there are other ways to say that, just as there are other ways to say something is "on deck" or you're "punting" a decision.
- saalweachter 8y ago
  I assumed it was from the networking 'ping'.
  - SnootyMonkey 8y ago
    As did I. Actually, it never occurred to me that it could have come from anywhere else.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    I kind of figured, but that terminology and specific phrasing in the tech world is obnoxious and pretentious. Just say "hey can we talk later?" No need to use to buzzword terms to ask for a simple conversation. Honestly, I hardly acknowledge those ping requests anymore. I'm sure there is a packet loss pun, but it's late and I'm tired.
  - bonestamp2 8y ago
    Right, but don't you think that was named after radar/sonar pings too?