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Nordstrom's 75-word employee handbook
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- fortes 16y agoHowever, new hire orientations now provide this card along with a full handbook of other more specific rules and legal regulations, as the way Nordstrom operates has changed. Too good to be true in the modern day perhaps. Seems like they broke their own Rule #1
- petercooper 16y agoThough, as tptacek pointed out a while back, there can be more comfort with well defined boundaries: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1640765 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1640765 Personally, I love the idea but, with disappointment, I can't pragmatically recommend it for all but the most minor of situations. There are so many workplace rules and laws that violate common sense that you have to adhere to (e.g. many "harassment" laws) that spelling them out is almost the only way to avoid frequent problems (e.g. My wife was formally reprimanded for not inviting certain colleagues to an after work - and not work related - function. This is called "bullying" nowadays and we spent months dealing with the disciplinary case/suspension/etc. They now have a policy where you have to officially disclose who you are friends with or not and why. My wife no longer works.) Update: I read too quickly. It seems they've realized the above and are distributing a book of policies too. A shame.
- jamesbressi 16y agoStupid iPad and my finger. The down vote on your comment was from me and it was unintentional. I liked the link you dug up and shared. I'm sorry. =\
- petercooper 16y agoI've done that before too, so it all evens out ;-) Hopefully this will be a thing of the past when the HN iPad app I've heard being released by a couple of HNers comes out!
- SupremumLimit 16y agoThe situation your wife was in is an example of corporate insanity, it doesn't mean that every company has to operate like that, does it? I'm pretty sure that's going overboard in any country. Also, some countries have saner laws than others. The problem I see with not having rules is different: it can only work when you have people who actually care about the results of their work, and feel that they can make a difference. I think it can work (see Semco for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_%28book%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_%28book%29) but only with carefully selected people and with conscious effort to foster such culture.
- msbarnett 16y agoOf course, one way to get people to care about their job and feel like they can make a difference is to not hand them a 3-ring binder of rules, phrases, and duties that they are expected to follow, utter, and carry out like mindless automatons.
- j_baker 16y agoI think it depends on the person. Personally, I make it a habit to forget rules as soon as possible. But I know plenty of intelligent people who need the structure of rules (even to the point where they enjoy a certain level of micromanagement). I think those people are masochists, but they usually think of me as a loose cannon, so it evens out. Sometimes I feel like they're the programmer equivalents to the "by the book" partner in cop shows, while I'm the "never read the book" partner. But maybe I really just like imagining myself in a cop show.
- makmanalp 16y agoIt feels like too many laws make people judgement-lazy and eventually stupid. We're all adults and should be able to figure out what's appropriate. If something isn't, we should be able to talk about it. If you spell out everything that's wrong you're implying that everything else is right, and you're speaking in absolutes.
- tptacek 16y agoThat depends entirely on the cost of failure. Nordstrom's became famous for having a "no return policy" return policy, which is the major implication of that 75 word card: a clerk at Nordstrom's could process a return with no receipt 7 months after the purchase if that seemed like the right thing to do to satisfy a customer (especially if it was going to get you to spend $500 more on that visit). But then, the cost of failure in handling a return is maybe $40. In other environments, the cost of failure is much higher. My team works in one. We're paid to punch holes in other people's very important applications. The cost of breaking rules of engagement could be "halt trading". We have more rules. Generally, it seems like you want to go the "75 word employee handbook" route when the cost of failure is relatively minimal, and then only if you can use it as a differentiator (you also have to pay for and train people who can demonstrate excellent customer service). (And, obviously, in 2010, you can't be an employer with a 75 word handbook, unless you want to get sued every time you fire someone.)
- j_baker 16y ago"And, obviously, in 2010, you can't be an employer with a 75 word handbook, unless you want to get sued every time you fire someone." IANAL, but I've worked for plenty of companies that have a 0 word handbook. I don't see why companies can't have a 75-word handbook.
- tptacek 16y agoNo law says you need to have an employee handbook, but there are a variety of spurious claims terminated employees can make (from harassment to discrimination and so on), and if you're called to the mat, any reason you had for terminating that person should ideally be traceable back to an employee handbook (including the company disciplinary process, so you can give an employee a "warning" and have that mean something afterwards).
- scott_s 16y agoMaybe people shouldn't feel comfortable. Maybe feeling comfortable is what leads people to not think critically about their actions. "I want to help you, but it's against the rules."
- Semiapies 16y agoIn my experience, it's the people who don't feel comfortable about what they can do without getting into trouble who most reflexively cite the rules. Think of the teenager who stammers and calls a manager at any mildly out-of-the-ordinary development.
- jsankey 16y agoHowever, new hire orientations now provide this card along with a full handbook of other more specific rules and legal regulations, as the way Nordstrom operates has changed. Hopefully the 75-word card still sets the tone, and the full handbook is just to satisfy the bureaucrats.
- dholowiski 16y agoProbably the handbook is full of over-reactions to various things that happened one time, and were blown way out of proportion- just like every other company.
- sudhirc 16y agosomething like this :) http://sivers.org/punish http://sivers.org/punish
- mikecane 16y agoThat's when the schools worked, people had consideration for others, and people wanted to work and get ahead. Businesses worked better back then.
- j_baker 16y ago...and kids walked uphill in the snow both ways to get to school?
- lmkg 16y agoThis is how my college worked, and I think it's a fabulous idea that promotes personal responsibility rather than CYA bullshit. During orientation, all the incoming freshmen (~200) were herded into a lecture hall, and a panel of five upperclassmen pontificated on the significance and nuances of the phrase "don't be a jackass." And that was basically it. We could drink as much alcohol as we wanted, we were just expected not to get into fights, break other people's stuff, get sent to the hospital, or otherwise do things that we or someone else would regret. We could burn quite a wide variety of things, in bulk, so long as no one got hurt. We were given unrestricted 24-hour access to computer labs, chemistry equipment, etc. Most of my exams were take-home, and we were expected to adhere to the rules (time limit, closed-book) because that was the cost of the privilege. We could pull all sorts of pranks against others students and even faculty, so long as we left contact information and any effects were reversible within 24 hours. We were expected to be responsible adults, and were treated like responsible adults, so we acted like responsible adults (well, we acted responsibly anyways). We actually had less alcohol-related incidents (assaults, property damage, alcohol poisoning) than any nearby college, despite (read: because of) their having significantly more restrictive policies. Like Nordstrom's, we did have to make a few concessions to the outside world, though they were few and far between. For example, we were not allowed to have bonfires that were taller than the dorms, because then women's college across the street thinks the school is on fire. The administration is totally fine with 50 mildly inebriated college students milling around an open flame in the middle of a dorm courtyard with no "adult" supervision, but they still don't like explaining it to the local fire department.
- j_baker 16y agoWhich college did you go to? Going to college in Texas, I think even suggesting some of these ideas would have given my university's administrators a heart attack.
- masterj 16y agoIt sounds a good bit like Rice a decade ago actually. They're a bit more strict on the pranks ("jacks") these days, and some of the other things are becoming a little more restricted as the university gets larger, but it still mostly applies.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- ScottBurson 16y agoAlong the same lines, check out the Netflix "Reference Guide on our Freedom & Responsibility Culture": http://www.netflix.com/Jobs http://www.netflix.com/Jobs I found it quite an interesting read. Seems like a thoroughly enlightened way to run a company.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoWow! Sounds exciting, full of opportunity and risk. have to be a special person to take advantage of that policy. And that's what they say they are looking for - special people.
- spitfire 16y agoI like the inscription on Henry Royce's fireplace mantle "QUIDVIS RECTE FACTUM QUAMVIS HUMILE PRAECLARUM" Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble. I think that would make a nice employee handbook in itself.
- mattmaroon 16y ago"However, new hire orientations now provide this card along with a full handbook of other more specific rules and legal regulations, as the way Nordstrom operates has changed." That's what I call progress.
- nutjob123 16y agoWouldn't this cause them trouble if they have a suit for wrongful termination?
- uxp 16y agoA company I work with employs many of their sales force from Nordstroms, since they're on about the same playing field market-wise. Its been a few years, but I did once have a conversation with one sales guy about a story I once heard of a person returning a used tire to a Nordstroms which stood on the grounds of a tire store that was demolished to build the Nordstroms. He explained how he viewed the philosophy behind things like this rule. If I remember correctly, where needed, they also have a large set of rules which do state things that cannot be done, but they are also very broad. Examples that come to mind involve observing shoplifting by employees, sexual harassment and absenteeism. It basically says that if one breaks the law or does things that negatively effect other workers or customers, the offending employee was subject for review and generally if someone is reviewed for these actions, the employee is most likely fired. The sames person I spoke with gave me the impression that the 75 word "handbook" was a facade to make the company look very good from the outside, but they also had enough internal rules to cover their rear end for these types of scenarios.
- Hovertruck 16y agoMy girlfriend works at a Home Depot, and I recall her telling me a story about one of the stores in her area accepted "returned" tires, despite the store not actually selling tires. They are hanging on the wall in the store as a decoration now.
- mkramlich 16y agoI like that rulebook almost as much as Fight Club's rulebook.
- brock790 16y agoThis is very cool in theory, but my girlfriend just quit her job at Nordstrom after working there for 3+ years and her experience was very different. She is a very hard and dedicated worker and some of the Nordstrom policies are very unfavorable to employees. Two quick examples: 1, During one of their biggest sales of the year my girlfriend was working close to 80 hours per week, working long hours and in many occasions working overnight to make sure inventory was on the shelves for the next day. She was told by HR that she would be paid time and a half for her overtime hours, which is pretty standard I would assume. After getting her pay check, it looked extremely low and after verifying with HR they told her that she mis-herd what they said and for overtime hours she is only paid half of her normal hourly rate. 2: Nordstroms health insurance for employees working on the sales floor is off/on each month depending on how much you are selling. One moth my girlfriend had insurance and another month she did not. She was not notified when she was/wasn't eligible and had to pay more than expected several times on various medical bills because of this. Even after this poor employee treatment, my girlfriend was not mad, the most frustrating thing was that Nordstrom preaches how well it treats their employees and how they are known for it. Clearly this is not the case.
- j_baker 16y ago"She was told by HR that she would be paid time and a half for her overtime hours, which is pretty standard I would assume. After getting her pay check, it looked extremely low and after verifying with HR they told her that she mis-herd what they said and for overtime hours she is only paid half of her normal hourly rate." Was this in the US? And was she salaried? I'm pretty sure this is illegal otherwise.
- brock790 16y agoYeah, the store on Michigan Ave. in Chicago. Her income from Nordstrom was based on a salary + commission from sales. I said the same thing to her in terms of it not being legal, but they gave her some long winded explanation that I'm sure in one way or another is technically legal. Maybe she wasn't "required" to work or because she is also paid on commission it somehow doesn't apply to her? I'm really not sure... The thing that is appalling is that a company that says they are so great to their employees will try to justify these actions and put blame on the ones who are working their butts off and are dedicated to their responsibilities. The only response she got was from someone in the company who was trying to sympathize with her saying "yeah, well thats why you just don't work more than 40 hours per week"
- kevin_morrill 16y agoGreat advice. Too bad Nordstrom does NOT follow it. Talk to their employees and you'll hear an entirely different story. Sales people are repeatedly told they need to accept fraudulent returns from thieves, which subtracts from commission you never earned since the returned item was stolen. When you shop there, you're subsidizing their insistence on sanctioning thieves.