4 ms·

All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Cargo bikes (with electric assist, if you wish) can haul a tremendous amount of car

All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Cargo bikes (with electric assist, if you wish) can haul a tremendous amount of cargo or multiple kids. And weather is really only a problem if you're badly equipped. Get a hardshell jacket and some rainpants, and rain is no longer a problem. Get a warm jacket, gloves, and a hat against the cold (maybe some warm leggings if it gets really cold). And people not knowing how to behave on icy roads is a major problem if that person is steering a car. On a properly equipped bike, not so much.

clarry 8y ago
> All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Dude, I've been cycling in all weather for 20 years. I've been hauling stuff, small and big, light and heavy. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I've gotten stuck in snow so many times. Turns out a bicycle just doesn't have a whole lot of traction or stability when riding a crumbling layer of snow on ice. No, studs don't fix it, and cargo definitely doesn't help it. At least I can hop off and hike the bike, but maybe not if it's a heavy electric cargo bike with guitars and work equipment loaded. I've gotten soaked so many times, and even if I've got an outer layer that keeps me dry, there are many destinations you might want to go to where they don't exactly have the facilities for you to strip and put away dripping rain gear. I've also got my cargo soaked so many times, turns out protecting the cargo from water isn't quite as easy as putting a nice jacket on. I can only imagine how much harder it gets when you're trying to haul big cargo. And I've gotten soaked many times because weather can be unpredictable and having full rain gear on you where ever you go is a little too nuts. And no matter how much I dress, getting glasses completely dirtied with water mist or the face blasted with wind when it's -35degC outside isn't any fun, at all. I'd say I'm a rather avid cyclist, hell I rode my fixed gear road bike with 25mm road wheels to work, on snow and ice, on the coldest of winter days, because the grease on my winter bike's freewheel stiffened up and prevented the pawls from engaging. I go pretty far. But I would not expect the general population to want or even be able to put up with anywhere near as much. And then you need to make a trip longer than you can handle on a bike.
- lorenzhs 8y ago
  You bring up edge case after edge case. Yeah, -35C isn’t cycling weather but it’s also not something that most people who use cold as an excuse not to cycle to work ever experience on their commute. Most don’t transport sensitive musical equipment either. Or work somewhere they can’t hang a wet jacket. There are circumstances where your arguments apply, but they’re none of the typical situations encountered by most people who are making excuses why they “can’t” cycle.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mikestew 8y ago
There might be solutions to those points, but as a person who has sought to use alternate transportation for over thirty years, I’ll say that every g-ddamned one of those points is valid. At the extreme, I posit that anyone arguing that a single-track vehicle is fine on icy roads[0] falls into the category of “true believer” that is blind to the practical considerations of others. [0] studs just mean you fall down less frequently. Oh, but fall you will after a non-trivial distance.
- ip26 8y ago
  What about fat bikes? Haven't tried biking in ice much yet, but this winter I want to try.
Spooky23 8y ago
There’s a difference between can and will. I need to get my kid to school and get to work, then get back home again. If you have the time, space, cash and desire to futz with a dozen pieces of gear that’s great, but does not invalidate anything at all.
Shivetya 8y ago
It is the same line of excuses that many make when buying a motorcycle. The problem in the end is the same. Suddenly there is an excuse NOT to ride one day and then it multiplies until your back at square one. Rain doesn't also make you wet it makes your ride more dangerous so without traction control and ABS on your scooter your have suddenly multiplied your risk many times and this is just for your riding and not for all those others trying to do the same or driving full size vehicles. Against the cold only works so far before your again at risk or simply cannot bundle up enough. Then one has to ask, why not ride the bus if available? When it gets to freezing you run the risk of hypothermia and icy conditions on your drive plus reduced range and charging. A bike on icy roads worse than a car? Let me give you a hint, you cannot fall off four wheels and you cannot fall over either. Seriously, scooters and bikes and even motorcycles have their place but be realistic in trying to dismiss all the difficulties and risks associated. The number one risk is simply falling over and people do that all to well.
manigandham 8y ago
Or... I'll just drive a car. It's true that I could weather it all myself but I care about the safety and comfort of my family and would rather ferry them (and myself) in modern machines instead of huffing and puffing on a bike with a wagon. There's a time and place for evreything, but minimizing needs as "just wear some rainpants" doesn't convince anyone.
davrosthedalek 8y ago
Also, just don't get old. If you just stay 20, you can bike everywhere.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  I'm 54 and I bike everywhere.
scythe 8y ago
All of these objections are terrible. "Hey, just use this miserable half-solution!" Cargo bikes? Rain gear? Heavy jackets? Nobody wants to live like that. Why should the future be constantly uncomfortable? This is why I started hating urbanism: it's full of people whose entire argument is to deny the reality of other people's experience. Biking in the rain doesn't suck, crowded trains aren't uncomfortable, cargo bikes aren't exhausting, "wear a jacket", etc. We hate these things. I do not want to live in this world you describe. It sounds miserable.
- lorenzhs 8y ago
  I don't deny that sitting in a car in awful weather is more comfortable than cycling. I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole because the weather is awful for ten days of the year (unless you live in a place with daily tropical rainfalls or something), and I'm pointing out how people who live without a car deal with these things.
  - clarry 8y ago
    > I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole Then you're in the wrong place. Nobody here dismissed cycling as a whole. I'm an avid cyclist but I also recognize the downsides of it, and I understand why cycling is not a stellar choice for many people. If you read my first message in this thread again, you'll see that I outlined a few examples of specific scenarios when cycling isn't a good choice. I live in a place with four seasons. There's way more awful weather than ten days a year. Winter -- with ice and snow -- lasts months. Autumn with lots of rain and mud and chilly weather lasts a couple months. Spring, featuring meltwater everywhere, loose mud everywhere, and then again ice everywhere becaus it got cold again and the meltwater & mud froze lasts long enough too. Summer isn't without its storms and rainy days. "Edge case after edge case" are something I regularly run into, every year. And the people around me do too. They are common enough that it is not unreasonable for people to consider a car.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  >We hate these things. I do not want to live in this world you describe. It sounds miserable. The consequences of global warming sound miserable as well.

clarry 8y ago

> All of these points are brought up a lot, but none of them are really valid. Dude, I've been cycling in all weather for 20 years. I've been hauling stuff, small and big, light and heavy. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. I've gotten stuck in snow so many times. Turns out a bicycle just doesn't have a whole lot of traction or stability when riding a crumbling layer of snow on ice. No, studs don't fix it, and cargo definitely doesn't help it. At least I can hop off and hike the bike, but maybe not if it's a heavy electric cargo bike with guitars and work equipment loaded. I've gotten soaked so many times, and even if I've got an outer layer that keeps me dry, there are many destinations you might want to go to where they don't exactly have the facilities for you to strip and put away dripping rain gear. I've also got my cargo soaked so many times, turns out protecting the cargo from water isn't quite as easy as putting a nice jacket on. I can only imagine how much harder it gets when you're trying to haul big cargo. And I've gotten soaked many times because weather can be unpredictable and having full rain gear on you where ever you go is a little too nuts. And no matter how much I dress, getting glasses completely dirtied with water mist or the face blasted with wind when it's -35degC outside isn't any fun, at all. I'd say I'm a rather avid cyclist, hell I rode my fixed gear road bike with 25mm road wheels to work, on snow and ice, on the coldest of winter days, because the grease on my winter bike's freewheel stiffened up and prevented the pawls from engaging. I go pretty far. But I would not expect the general population to want or even be able to put up with anywhere near as much. And then you need to make a trip longer than you can handle on a bike.

lorenzhs 8y ago
You bring up edge case after edge case. Yeah, -35C isn’t cycling weather but it’s also not something that most people who use cold as an excuse not to cycle to work ever experience on their commute. Most don’t transport sensitive musical equipment either. Or work somewhere they can’t hang a wet jacket. There are circumstances where your arguments apply, but they’re none of the typical situations encountered by most people who are making excuses why they “can’t” cycle.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mikestew 8y ago

There might be solutions to those points, but as a person who has sought to use alternate transportation for over thirty years, I’ll say that every g-ddamned one of those points is valid. At the extreme, I posit that anyone arguing that a single-track vehicle is fine on icy roads[0] falls into the category of “true believer” that is blind to the practical considerations of others. [0] studs just mean you fall down less frequently. Oh, but fall you will after a non-trivial distance.

ip26 8y ago
What about fat bikes? Haven't tried biking in ice much yet, but this winter I want to try.

Spooky23 8y ago

There’s a difference between can and will. I need to get my kid to school and get to work, then get back home again. If you have the time, space, cash and desire to futz with a dozen pieces of gear that’s great, but does not invalidate anything at all.

Shivetya 8y ago

It is the same line of excuses that many make when buying a motorcycle. The problem in the end is the same. Suddenly there is an excuse NOT to ride one day and then it multiplies until your back at square one. Rain doesn't also make you wet it makes your ride more dangerous so without traction control and ABS on your scooter your have suddenly multiplied your risk many times and this is just for your riding and not for all those others trying to do the same or driving full size vehicles. Against the cold only works so far before your again at risk or simply cannot bundle up enough. Then one has to ask, why not ride the bus if available? When it gets to freezing you run the risk of hypothermia and icy conditions on your drive plus reduced range and charging. A bike on icy roads worse than a car? Let me give you a hint, you cannot fall off four wheels and you cannot fall over either. Seriously, scooters and bikes and even motorcycles have their place but be realistic in trying to dismiss all the difficulties and risks associated. The number one risk is simply falling over and people do that all to well.

manigandham 8y ago

Or... I'll just drive a car. It's true that I could weather it all myself but I care about the safety and comfort of my family and would rather ferry them (and myself) in modern machines instead of huffing and puffing on a bike with a wagon. There's a time and place for evreything, but minimizing needs as "just wear some rainpants" doesn't convince anyone.

davrosthedalek 8y ago

Also, just don't get old. If you just stay 20, you can bike everywhere.

tonyedgecombe 8y ago
I'm 54 and I bike everywhere.

scythe 8y ago

All of these objections are terrible. "Hey, just use this miserable half-solution!" Cargo bikes? Rain gear? Heavy jackets? Nobody wants to live like that. Why should the future be constantly uncomfortable? This is why I started hating urbanism: it's full of people whose entire argument is to deny the reality of other people's experience. Biking in the rain doesn't suck, crowded trains aren't uncomfortable, cargo bikes aren't exhausting, "wear a jacket", etc. We hate these things. I do not want to live in this world you describe. It sounds miserable.

lorenzhs 8y ago
I don't deny that sitting in a car in awful weather is more comfortable than cycling. I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole because the weather is awful for ten days of the year (unless you live in a place with daily tropical rainfalls or something), and I'm pointing out how people who live without a car deal with these things.
- clarry 8y ago
  > I'm challenging cheap dismissals of cycling as a whole Then you're in the wrong place. Nobody here dismissed cycling as a whole. I'm an avid cyclist but I also recognize the downsides of it, and I understand why cycling is not a stellar choice for many people. If you read my first message in this thread again, you'll see that I outlined a few examples of specific scenarios when cycling isn't a good choice. I live in a place with four seasons. There's way more awful weather than ten days a year. Winter -- with ice and snow -- lasts months. Autumn with lots of rain and mud and chilly weather lasts a couple months. Spring, featuring meltwater everywhere, loose mud everywhere, and then again ice everywhere becaus it got cold again and the meltwater & mud froze lasts long enough too. Summer isn't without its storms and rainy days. "Edge case after edge case" are something I regularly run into, every year. And the people around me do too. They are common enough that it is not unreasonable for people to consider a car.
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
>We hate these things. I do not want to live in this world you describe. It sounds miserable. The consequences of global warming sound miserable as well.